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BACK TO AFRICA-“CAN BLACKS IN AMERIKKKA WORK WITH BLACKS IN AFRICA?”

June 6, 2009

BROTHER HUDSON LIBERTY,A BLACK AMERIKKKAN

BROTHER HUDSON LIBERTY,A BLACK AMERIKKKAN

FROM village.africanpath.com

Connecting African Culture

Can Blacks in America Work With Blacks in Africa?

Posted by hudsonliberty on September 19, 2008 at 7:47pm in Friends
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The answer is Yes. The Black Business Builders Club is demonstrating the cooperation is not only possible but necessary. For many years, there has been an artificial rift between Blacks in the Homeland and those in the Diaspora.

As Dr. John Henrick Clarke would say, “It didn’t matter where the slave ship stopped to drop you off, we all came from Africa.” The Black Business Builders Club is making a concerted effort to build the economic bridge between Blacks Globally.

The fee structure for membership made it affordable to people even in some of the most economic stressed areas. It is another wonderful step in building bridges between the East Side of the Ocean and the West Side of the Ocean.

For more information on the club the resource site for the club. To join one goes to the club entrance
Tags: africa, at, based, blacks, business, cooperation, home, job, joint, training

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Permalink Reply by yaw on September 23, 2008 at 1:42am
I am glad the “answer in yes.” Having visited the continent on several times, and i’ve been captured, immershed and captivated with the people, their culure and their humanity; from the way that i see it, with the meetings of the minds of the far streched distance among the people of the diaspora and those on the continent, would be a Godly chosen circumstance. I think with the mindset of both coming togather for a common goal is achievable.

But, let me back up. even though all things are possible, it sometimes seems that what is destined to be, seem’s a bit far fectched, “like getting it together.” we often talk about ethic and tribal turmoil, etc. Well, perhaps to some degree, it does exist. I feel that anything i hear concerning this matter was intentionally conceived and planned for much of such causes. Even so, i’ve visited 13 or14
“countries”, (only because some of the countries are so small, it would seem if we could form and have a feradated union among various states) and classed as a visitor, i’ve enjoyed my connections, and indeed, feel that i have established some good links with many people every place i’ve gone. no, not every encounter is your ideal friendship. you’ll have to weed those not so hospitable out, just as anyother place, but the culture and the people seem to me, so full of humanity you can easily let your guard. It occurs to me that many of us here in the diaspora and on the continent desire to make these links, but lack the formality to do so, that is, the united front or effort to do; to pool our resources, both human and with monetary resources. The problem seem’s to stem from the word good GOVERNANCE by the leadership in too many of the Afrikan countries. Corruption. Why not we do nor pool these resources and work for the common good of bringing ourselves in unity for the betterment of our political and enconomic situation? to achieve meaniful economic and unity for this goal will require what many of us are not ready to do; give the necessary sacrfice to achieve what we say we want. And within the diaspora, are groups not pooling themselves for the interest of the cause. I see a lack of organization.

I conclude, that what is going on is the results of colonialism and slavery, of which has been vested into the hearts and minds of Afrikan people. Even so, it would appear that we would have learned to overcome such obstacles.

i feel there is much life left, i think, that is if global warming won’t extinguish us before someone get sense and stop the human madness, which i feel we all must partake in. I imagine we will have to take the lead roll in that as well.

I hope i have not gone to far from the point of issue, but i think it is all relevant. I just hope the continent of Afrika will still have enough of its resources left to sustain the future children to come. You know like the minerals and other natural resources: the cobalt, uraniaum, iron, copper, zinc, manganese, etc. hopefully the rich soil will be left to sustain us. So please!!! someone halt self extinction of selling all the minerals and keep hope alive.

yaw
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Permalink Reply by tekono on September 24, 2008 at 3:32am
Here is an example of a successful African American Businessman in Nigeria. He arrived with no capital in NIgeria in 1988 at the invitation of his University friends and he has been representing Apple Computers in Nigeria since 15 years now.You can read more on John Cashin;s journey on one of my blog posts:

More info about Cashin’s business in Nigeria:

MetroLAN Plans State-of-the-Art Apple Systems
By Okechukwu Kanu

——————————————————————————–

MetroLAN Ventures, a company which believes strongly in the radical revolutionary research & development programme of Apple Computers has set itself the target of using Apple products to provide the right basic tools to change lives. John Cashin, CEO MetroLAN Ventures made this known recently in a statement to THISDAY on the trends within MetroLAN and the computer industry.

He said MetroLAN could deliver the latest up-to-date range of Apple technology at short notice anywhere in the country. According to Cashin, “At any given time MetroLAN has several equipment in stock that are usually on the way out for delivery. The demand is such that many systems go straight from clearing to delivery. MetroLAN also offers a demonstration on its system for interested customers, on notification of their wish for this.

Cashin had more to say on the Apple range of products: “Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Apple is committed to bringing the best personal computing experience to students, educators, creative professionals and consumers around the world through its innovative hardware, software and Internet offerings.”

MetroLAN also offers a complete line of high quality, high performance Internet, Intranet and Extranet solutions enabling customers to increase productivity and profitability through Internet technology. Through its comprehensive service offerings, MetroLAN meets the requirements of businesses, governments & parastatals, online service providers and telecommunications firms. Customers can choose from in-house deployment to end-to-end, fully managed Internet services, all backed by technical support. MetroLAN’s Systems & Hardware Services Group provides Information Technology services, such as systems integration and networking that allow organizations to match their IT strategy with their business objectives.

MetroLAN offers remote access options such as, ISDN and VPN, Wireless Technology. With MetroLAN Wireless Internet, customers will have access to a complete spectrum of remote connectivity options to satisfy their telecommuters, traveling road warriors and other e-workforce needs. MetroLAN is working to further enhance and extend its IP networking offerings beyond Nigeria and into the West African Regions. This will improve availability of expanded bandwidth and redundancy options and inter-operability between legacy data connections and IP VPN solutions.

MetroLan Ventures is an Apple Authorized Dealer for Nigeria which and advises, sells, supports and provides warranty for the Apple range of products.

The company has a daring list of companies for which it has done all sorts of jobs. They include: THISDAY Newspaper, National Maritime Authority HQ; Christ Embassy Ikeja, Lagos and ABG Communications, Kaduna. Others are Nigeria Minting Security & Printing Company, Victoria Island, Lagos; Continental Transfer Technique Limited, Victoria Island, Lagos; Daily Times Of Nigeria Ikeja, Lagos; Equity & Research Associates (Banking & Financial Consultants) Ikoyi, Lagos and several others.
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Permalink Reply by tekono on September 24, 2008 at 3:57am
I am just using few examples of successful African American businessmen currently operating in Africa to show that yes, Blacks in America and Blacks in Africa can work together:

Sweet success in South Africa: a wine merchant finds opportunity in Johannesburg
Black Enterprise, June, 2008 by Kelly E. Carter
E-mail Print Link [ILLUSTRATION OMITTED]

ALL EYES WILL BE ON SOUTH AFRICA WHEN THE COUNTRY hosts soccer’s World Cup in 2010. But aside from the sports fanfare, fare, the capital city, Johannesburg, which will host the opening ceremony and final match, is getting significant attention because of its growth in the business sector.

Mining no longer drives the economic growth in this city of 3.9 million. Today, finance and manufacturing, which contribute 34% to the national economy and approximately 9% to the gross domestic product fuel the province of Gauteng (which includes Johansesburg) more than any other district. Information and communications technology and construction also represent growth sectors.

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Son Gault, 67, has witnessed this dramatic change. The Chicago native moved to Johannesburg in December 1996 from New York where he served as a managing director of JPMorgan, heading an infrastructure group in the public finance department. After anti-apartheid sanctions were lifted, the firm opened a South Africa office and installed Gault as managing director. The four-employee office grew to 70 before the 2000 merger with Chase Manhattan Corp. “It was a wonderful opportunity,” says Gault, who appeared on BLACK ENTERPRISE’S 2002 list of Top 50 African Americans ON Wall Street. “Several of the global banking institutions have opened offices here.” He cites Citibank, HSBC, and Merril Lynch South African. Bank of China, Barcklays, Deutsche, and State Bank of India have also set up shop there.

Moreover, 80% of approximately 600 American companies have a presence in South Africa. A little more than half of those, including Microsoft, Coca-Cola Co., Ford, DuPont, UPS, Intel, and Colgate-Palmolive, are among America’s largest companies.

Gault transitioned–a word he prefers to retired–from JPMorgan Chase in early 2006. but he and his wife, noted journalist and author Charlayne Hunter-Gault, remain permanent residents of South Africa. (They own a place in New York City and spend summers at their Martha’s Vineyard home.) Gault is now a chairman of a private investment company, an adviser for an international management consulting firm, and a producer-exporter of South African wine. His RTG Trading Co. portfolio consisted of Passages, a wine venture he started with his wife; Epicurean, which Gault launched with three South African business partners; and wines from the othe vineyards. “The thing about South Africa that is so attractive is that the vista is full of opportunities,” Gault says. “If you have an idea, pick one. If you have enough energy, enthusiasm, and financial wherewithal, pursue it.”

He points out that Johannesburg, like many large cities, has social and economic problems. “Power outages, inadequate public education facilities, a need to curb crime, unemployment, inadequate public health facilities, the full menu of problems that cities have, you’ll find them here.” Gault says. Despite those difficulties, he manages to enjoy long, leisurely lunches with friends on weekends and plays golf and tennis in his spare time.

City: JOHANNESBURG

ACCOMMODATIONS

If you’ve got a few nickels to spend, Gault recommends the Saxon Boutique Hotel and Spa (36 Saxon Road, +27-11-292-6000, http://www.saxon.co.za). He appreciates the ambience and spaciousness at this serene, 24-suite sanctuary. “It’s not a well-traveled venue, so you can go there and do pretty much what you like without a lot of interruptions.” A suite is named in honor of the nation’s favorite son, Nelson Mandela, who stayed at the hotel when he edited his autobiography, Long Walk to Freedom (Back Bay Books; $17.99).

For convenience, Gault recommends that business travelers stay at the Hyatt Regency (191 Oxford Road, Rosebank, +27-11-280-1234, http://www.johannesburg.regency.hyatt.com), in the cosmopolitan suburb of Rosebank. The 259-room hotel, centrally located in the business and social district, features the Phumula Spa and Peak Health Club.

DINING

French-born chef Frederic Leloup dazzles diners with his native country’s cuisine at the chic Auberge Michel (122 Pretoria Ave. Sandown, +27-11-885-7013, http://www.aubergemichel.co.za), which boasts an extensive wine cellar. Gault suggests the escargot as a starter and duck for the main course, noting that the fish dishes are particularly tasty as well.

Another one of Gault’s favorites is The Orient (4 The High St. Melrose Arch, +27-11-684-1616), which serves contemporary Asian cuisine in a sexy, indoor setting and alfresco. Feast on Japanese sushi Vietnamese steamed fish, and Chinese dim sum

SHOPPING

Find it all at Sandton City Shopping Centre (+27-11-217 6000. http://www.sandtoncity.com), where 300 stores are spread over three levels and offer international brands such as Hugo Boss, Diesel, Lacoste, Hiss Sixty, Dunhill, Versace Collection, and Guess. South African designers Jenni Button and Hilton Weiner can also be found there.

CULTURAL

Gault’s must-do list includes a visit to the Apartheid Museum (Northern Parkway and Gold Reef Road, +27-11-309-4700, http://www.apartheidmuseum.org), a guided tour of Soweto, and outings to art galleries. He particularly suggests the Everard Read Gallery (6 Jellicoe Ave., Rosebank. +27-11-788-4805, http://www.everardread.co.za), South Africa’s largest and most well-known commercial gallery, which exhibits a range of national and international artists. Newtown Music Centre, +27-11-838-9145, http://www.bassline.co.za) features live South African jazz, kwaito, and hip-hop artists.
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Permalink Reply by tekono on September 24, 2008 at 4:12am
The Historical Relationship Between African Americans and South Africa

Culled from: http://www.howard.edu/library/reference/bob_edgar_site/maintext.html

The relationships between African Americans and Africans in South Africa are especially intriguing because most African Americans trace their ancestry to societies in West and Central Africa, not southern Africa, and because there has not been a large migration of blacks from South Africa to the United States. From the late eighteenth century, the exchanges began to flower as African Americans made their way to South Africa under different guises. The earliest visitors were sailors who crewed American whalers that docked in ports such as Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and Durban. Some of these sailors, along with West Indians, settled permanently or for extended periods. They became key intermediaries for spreading ideas from the black diaspora back to Africa.

Other African Americans moved into the South African interior, setting up small businesses or seeking work and adventure as the diamond and gold fields opened up in the late nineteenth century. A notable case was Yankee Wood, a ship steward who turned up in Port Elizabeth during the American Civil War. After building up a nest egg on the diamond fields, he opened up hotels in Kokstad and Johannesburg, and he staked out gold claims.

Yankee Wood, a former ship steward, settled in South Africa after the American Civil War. He participated in the gold rush on the Witwatersrand in the 1880s and owned hotels in Johannesburg and Kokstad.
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In the arts African Americans made notable contributions to South African African music. Between 1890 and 1898, Orpheus McAdoo’s Jubilee Singers spent five years on three separate trips touring South Africa. These troupe’s performances of spirituals, folk songs, minstrel shows and dances left an indelible impression on African choirs, social clubs, and music styles as well as independent church leaders. The absorption of American jazz and ragtime, dance and recording styles in South Africa in this century has resulted in distinctive urban African music styles such as marabi, a mix of traditional and borrowed forms. In the last decade, marabi and its variants have made their way to the United States and influenced popular music.

Herbert Payne, a Baptist missionary, was stationed at Middledrift in the eastern Cape from 1917 to 1922.
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The Jubilee Singers were circulating through South Africa at about the same time as African American missionaries began to arrive. The National Baptist Convention founded a mission station in 1894 in Cape Town and the African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church and a lesser known body, the Church of God and Saints of Christ, followed. Motivated by a desire to redeem and uplift Africa, they attracted many African Christians into their folds who were disenchanted with European mission Christianity. They influenced black education thought through their schools and religious philanthropies. As a result of these ties, possibly as many as several hundred Africans from South Africa journeyed to the United States for higher education in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries and forged close ties with African Americans. Many were sponsored by the AME, and most found places at black colleges such as Wilberforce, Tuskegee, Fisk, Hampton, and Lincoln. Alarmed at the prospect of African students being influenced by radical political ideas at black colleges in the United States, in 1916, the South African government founded Fort Hare College exclusively for black students.

Livingstone Mzimba (left) and Harry Mantenga (right), students from the eastern Cape, were ends on the Lincoln College football team in 1907 when this photograph was taken. After graduating, both returned to South Africa and became Presbyterian ministers. (Lincoln University Archive)
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Booker T. Washington’s self-help and industrial education ideas also had a major impact on black (and white) educational circles in South Africa. His ideas were copied in schools such as John Dube’s Ohlange Institute at Inanda and the AME Wilberforce Institute in Evaton. Washington’s Tuskegee model of self-reliance in agriculture had special significance for African farmers who were attempting to survive on the bits of land left after European conquest in the nineteenth century.
For most of this century, the South African government tightly controlled the number of African Americans allowed into South Africa. Most were either teachers, such as Janet Jackson in Cape Town, or missionaries. On rare occasions African-American scholars secured visas and traveled around South Africa for short periods. The most notable were Eslanda Robeson, who stopped over in South Africa for three weeks in mid-1936, and Ralph Bunche, who journeyed around South Africa for three months in late 1937. In addition, black sailors in the U.S. Navy stopped off for shore leaves in port cities like Cape Town and Durban.

The journeys of Bunche and Robeson were mirrored by the ventures of Africans who traveled around the United States. Most of these travelers came to study American education, but some, such as Solomon Plaatje, had explicit political agendas. All of them sent back letters or wrote essays about the differences and similarities they observed between race relations and segregation in South Africa and the United States.

Although person-to-person ties were important, it was in the realm of ideas and images that African Americans had an effect on Africans in South Africa that far outweighed their numbers. African Americans became a potent political symbol for Africans. For instance, Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois had their own circles of educated followers in South Africa who applied the African-American experience of struggle to their own predicament.

The figure who most captured the imagination of a mass audience in South Africa was Marcus Garvey with his message of race pride, unity, and self-determination for Africa. After the First World War Garvey’s Universal Negro Improvement Association set up branches around South Africa and the Garvey message took on a life of its own as African politicians shaped it to serve their parochial needs. For example, in the 1920s, Wellington Buthelezi, leader of a Garvey offshoot in the Transkei and a Zulu who claimed to be an African American, tapped into a wellspring of millennial fervor and recast African Americans as liberators who were coming to free South Africa from white oppression. This image of an African-American savior lingered on long after Buthelezi’s eclipse.

African Americans became a metaphor for progress and success. Africans saw them as survivors of slavery who were now advancing themselves in an industrialized and westernized society similar to their own. Though the achievements of African American professionals, politicians, and businessmen were sometimes exaggerated, Africans closely followed African American male musicians such as Paul Robeson, Fats Waller, and Duke Ellington and sports figures such as Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, and Henry Armstrong. On the other hand, male Africans regarded professional African-American women who engaged themselves in public activities with suspicion because they symbolized female autonomy and challenged male control of the household.

Finally African Americans were involved as advocates of political change in South Africa. The Council on African Affairs was founded in New York in the late 1930s to educate the American public about first segregation and then apartheid in South Africa and to influence American foreign policy. Its most prominent spokesman was Paul Robeson, who was already well known in South Africa. Max Yergan was another key figure. In 1921 the YMCA had dispatched him to Alice, the home of Fort Hare College in the Eastern Cape. During his 14-year sojourn as a missionary, Yergan became increasingly radicalized by his experiences with conditions in South Africa and he influenced Fort Hare students such as Govan Mbeki to move to the left politically. When he returned to the United States, he helped establish the Council. But his later shift to the right provoked a dramatic break and he ended up as an apologist for the South African regime.

The Council was the forerunner of the American anti-apartheid movement. As the Council on African Affairs was declining and under attack from the US government, the American Committee on Africa was founded to support the ANC’s Defiance Campaign in 1952. Other organizations such as the American Negro Leadership Council and the Organization of Afro-American Unity were also established in the same period and maintained communications with South Africa.

In the 1940s, South African political groups such as the ANC and the South African Indian Congress sent delegations to lobby at the United Nations. During the 1950s ANC leaders corresponded with African-American civil rights leaders about their respective struggles. Through the exchanges a friendship was forged between Martin Luther King, Jr. and Albert Lutuli. These two prominent advocates of non-violent tactics were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
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Permalink Reply by tekono on September 24, 2008 at 4:14am
After 27 years in prison, it took Nelson Mandela only four months after his release in February 1990 to pay a visit to the United States, He came to acknowledge those Americans, particularly members of the African American community, who had supported his battle for freedom in South Africa. For decades many tireless and patient North Americans had kept an anti-apartheid movements alive — in the churches, on campuses, in corporate boardrooms and trade union halls. When three African Americans stated a sit-in at the South African Embassy in Washington, D.C. on Thanksgiving eve 1984, their arrest provoked one of the longest-running and most effective political demonstrations in recent U.S. history. Daily marches at the Embassy took place without interruption for several years, drawing national and international attention. Pressure built up to change American foreign policy towards South Africa; and Congress responded by passing the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act in 1986. The Act was one reason why South Africa’s main opposition groups were legalized in February 1990 and Mandela released a week later.

In Mandela’s autobiography Long Walk to Freedom he recounts some of his impressions of African Americans during his first stay in New York City. “I went up to Harlem, an area that had assumed legendary proportions in my mind since the 1950s when I watched young men in Soweto emulate the fashions of Harlem dandies. Harlem, as my wife said, was the Soweto of America. I spoke to a great crowd at Yankee Stadium, telling them that an unbreakable umbilical cord connected black South Africans and black Americans, for we were together children of Africa. There was a kinship between the two, I said, that had been inspired by such great Americans as W.E.B. Du Bois, Marcus Garvey, and Martin Luther King, Jr….In prison, I followed the struggle of black Americans against racism, discrimination, and economic inequality.”

Emotional as it was, Mandela’s trip was by no means the first exchange between blacks of these two large, urbanized, industrialized, multiracial nations. As we enter the twenty-first century, connections between the two countries are bound to become more dynamic and productive. Therefore now is an appropriate moment to retrieve and evaluate the rich but little known history of African American involvement with South Africa. This relationship stretches back several centuries, and the diverse and surprising linkages that have developed between African Americans and Africans go beyond political and economic matters to include a wide range of social and cultural issues, such as education, religion and ethics, sports, music, literature, theater and art.

The project’s co-directors, Dr. David Anthony, a historian at the University of California at Santa Cruz, and Dr. Robert Edgar, a historian at Howard University, propose to chronicle this relationship through an edition of primary documents that illustrates the exchanges that have taken place between African Americans and black South Africans from the late eighteenth century when African American sailors began venturing to South Africa to 1965. We have made 1965 a cut-off date because of shifts in the American civil rights movement and the progression of freedom movements in South Africa from legal, above-ground protest to underground, armed resistance.

The project commenced in September 1999 and will continue for a three-year period. The project is centered on a collection of several thousand documents that the project’s co-directors have collected over the past several decades from a variety of sources — diaries, private papers, travelers’ accounts, autobiographies, speeches, songs and hymns, government documents, missionary journals, magazines, newspapers, books and interviews — in the United States, Europe, and South Africa. When taken as a whole, these documents provide eloquent testimony to a relationship that has largely been relegated to the margins in historical studies.

This project will illuminate questions raised by recent scholarship on the African diaspora and the ties that have existed for many centuries between Africans on the African continent and people of African descent around the globe. African diaspora studies have challenged scholars to move outside traditional disciplinary and geographical boundaries to examine how black communities in different parts of the world engage, interact and influence each other. For instance, Paul Gilroy has coined the term “Black Atlantic” to describe the complex of ideas and culture flowing between blacks in North America and Europe.

We believe that a “Black Atlantic” also developed between black communities in the United States and South Africa because of their shared experiences with white domination and segregation in industrializing societies and their efforts to overcome discrimination and devise strategies of mobilizing and advancing themselves. Despite their common ground, individuals and groups within these communities had different views and perspectives on a range of issues and these made the exchanges all the more fascinating. The collection’s documents include discussions between both communities over appropriate political and economic strategies for responding to and challenging segregation and white domination; their attempts to pressure the American government and the international community to oppose the apartheid system; how they assessed the similarities and differences in racism, race relations and racial identities in each other’s societies; how they created perceptions and images of each other and how these shaped their own identities; and how and for what purposes popular culture and ideas were transmitted from one society to another.
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Permalink Reply by AnNu on January 23, 2009 at 1:19am

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Permalink Reply by Eric Eyutchae on February 17, 2009 at 12:54pm
That will be the best thing the African Americans can do for themselves.Yes they can! and Yes they should! African Americans should be coming to Africa more frequently,that is where the power lies.
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Permalink Reply by Benin Mwangi on February 17, 2009 at 1:27pm
It is one of the best things that one can do in their lifetime, to make a trip to Africa. And if one can find a way to settle their permanently, then all the better.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Eyutchae on February 17, 2009 at 2:53pm
Thank you Benin,I don’t know how to get this message to African Americans,that our best bet is for them to move focus unto Africa,the closer they come to the heart of this world they will definitely see that,the power is in Africa,not in europe,nor America,or Asia.If you remember I mentioned earlier about what moves Economy – THE WILL.Without the will forget about persistence nor all the other virtues.The power is there incubating.African Americans should start waking up,enough of their slumber and whining over trivial issues,where is man without his roots?remember the whites saw this and used the opportunity to rape Africa.Look at picasso,where did all his genius come from? Africa,from the African sculptures and today no picasso painting is less than $2million.That is just one example,not to talk of the physical energy that makes construction possible.
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BROTHER JOHN CASHIN WHO CAME BACK TO AFRICA FROM USA 20 YEARS AGO TELLS US ABOUT THE USA PRESIDENTS WITH BLACK BLOOD BEFORE LIKE EISENHOWER…-FROM THE GUARDIAN NEWSPAPERS,NIGERIA

June 6, 2009

FROM ngrguardiannews.com

Obama, Not The First American President With Black Blood
By Debo Oladimeji

A NIGERIAN-BASED BLACK American, Mr. John Cashin has described United States President-elect Barack Obama as the 8th American President with black blood in his veins.

According to him, the last US President with 25 per cent African blood was President David “Ike” Eisenhower, whose President mother, Ida Elisabeth Stover, was a half-cast.

“She met a German immigrant, named David J. Eisenhower, and their son later became the President of United States,” he stated.

Before Eisenhower, he mentioned Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover and Abraham Lincoln, whose father was also a black mulatto, among others.

“Before Abraham Lincoln was Andrew Jackson from Tennessee and Thomas Jefferson of Virginia, who both had a grandmother that was also partly Native American and partly black,” he posited.

He also cited the important roles of black Congressmen in American politics. “Then you have the Swedish and Black President of the Congress, Mr. John Hanson, the very first non-executive President under the Articles of Confederation from 1781-1782, prior to the United States Constitution.

“The last black senator, before him was a Republican Edward W. Brooke, who was elected in 1966 in Massachusetts after being the State Attorney General. Before that, we have had several other black Congressmen. I had a family member named John Mercer Langston, who was elected in 1890 from Virginia, when he was a Virginia State Senator,” he recalled.

In 1972, he disclosed that America had a black woman Congressman named Shirley Chislom and a black named Dick Gregory also in 1972, who was a comedian and ran for the Presidency.

“Then, we have Rev. Jesse Jackson Snr. He ran twice for the Presidency in 1984 and 1988. After Jackson, some other blacks people ran for the Presidency, including Dr. Lenora Fulani of New Alliance Party and another Black Congresswoman this year (2008), Cynthia McKinney of Atlanta, Georgia on the Green Party Ticket,” he enthused.

Obama, he reasoned, was not the first black senator, as there was another black woman from Chicago, Carol Mosley Braun.

But he agreed that Obama is the first African-American President popularly elected. “To me, he is an American-African President. His father is from Kenya, his mother a Jewish-American,” he stressed.

According to him, a lot of people did not hear of Obama until he became Senator-elect and made his remarkable speech at the Democratic Party Convention in 2004. Also, Cashin said a lot of people do not know that Obama ran for the US House of Representatives before the Senate but lost to Congressman Bobby Rush, a former Black Panther Party member, now a Democrat in Congress from Chicago’s South Side 2nd District. He is the Representative in the district next to Jesse Jackson Jnr. Rush, he explained, was a member of the Black Panther Party, which had membership all over the US and quite a presence in Chicago, California and New York. He has been popular in that part of Chicago community since the 1960s.

He also reminisced that there was a black woman that was once in the presidential race on the Green Party ticket. “She was a Congresswoman from Atlanta for 10 years until she started a campaign for the Green Party ticket with former Hip Hop Rap star from New York City, a Hispanic woman, Rosa Clemente, who was her Veepee,” Cashin stated.

He explained that Obama, who won the popular vote fought against the institution of slavery.

He said that it was gratifying that Obama ran against the institution of slavery and won, recalling that the President-elect also secured the support of black celebrities, like Oprah Winfrey, who happened to be his church congregation member and decided to have a show dedicated to his presidential campaign.

“That was a critical turning point in the whole campaign and her media power was a key turning point, and then the whole snowball effect took place.

“Without it, I don’t think Obama would have got the money to pull through the party primaries. The show was meant for support but it was a key critical turning point. That Africentric Church member, Oprah Winfrey, had that show dedicated to him and that set a big stage for Obama,” he emphasised.

“Without that Oprah show, I don’t think he (Obama) could have had the money to win. But for such a black leader, like John Lewis, who supported Hillary Clinton originally to say that he going with Obama was risky. This is because even one year ago, Hilary was it. But now, everybody knows who Obama is. A year and half ago, it was like Obama who?”

According to Cashin, Obama’s journey to the White House was not an easy one. “Obama had to learn American style of campaigning. He was taught a big lesson when Bobby Rush beat him. No campaign has been done like the Obama campaign. Everybody started copying Obama’s campaign strategy eventually,” he reasoned.

He added that Obama had to speak at a large National Football Stadium in Denver town to show the world that he deserved to be voted for by the American people.

“Today, you can’t win elections in the United States without a hi-tech. Obama’s team showed that those old ways of campaigning are now gone. Every three weeks, there was a major change in the ICT strategy. The Obama campaign was caucus community style and had a very humane element too. Internet people are thinkers; once you have the thinkers behind you, they can begin to convince the common man to vote for you. This helped youthful Obama’s campaign tremendously,” he said.

He regretted that the US election process is not fair for everybody, saying only Maine and Nebraska select electors somewhat constitutionally.

“In only these two states, the electors are chosen district by district instead of winner take all, like in the other 48 states,” he stated.

Cashin’s family has been actively involved in American politics since the 1870s.

© 2003 – 2009 @ Guardian Newspapers Limited (All Rights Reserved).
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RACISM IN ISRAEL AGAINST THE BLACK ETHIOPIAN ORIGINAL JEWS!-FROM TSEDAY.WORDPRESS.COM

June 6, 2009

STOP THE RACISM AGAINST THE BLACK ETHIOPIAN JEWS IN ISRAEL!

STOP THE RACISM AGAINST THE BLACK ETHIOPIAN JEWS IN ISRAEL!

FROM TSEDAY.WORDPRESS.COM

An Ethiopian Journal“Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel?” (Amos 9:7)

How a Jew becomes Black in the Promised Land

It’s sad to hear the harsh reality faced by Ethiopian Jews in Israel. The Israeli government has yet to protect the rights and dignity of this neglected community. Racism exists in Israel! And the Black Jews of Ethiopia are one of its victims. Little do we know that they are the true original Jews from Biblical times! Shame on Israel.

-Tseday M

Being a Black Jew in Israel: Identity Politics in the Post-hegemonic Era
Uri Ben-Eliezer – University of Haifa (2007)
http://www.american.edu/israelstudies/whatsnew/Papers/Uri.htm

The Ethiopian immigrants arrived in Israel at a time of great transformation in the country. For decades, Israel followed an ideology consisting of practices and a structure of domination known as mamlakhtiyut (statism). It was based on the nation-state model, in which everything is managed, concentrated, and supervised from above. The attitude toward the many immigrants who arrived in the fledgling state was that they had to adapt themselves to the integrating society. If not, the state mechanisms would do it for them.

Almost inevitably, attempts to assimilate generate dependence. The anthropologist Esther Herzog described how the absorption centers to which the Ethiopian immigrants were sent created and then heightened their dependence on the existing population. An absorption center creates a bifurcated world, in which the officials who mediate between the world inside and the world outside possess great power.
It did not take long before the new immigrants’ problems with the Chief Rabbinate began. The religious establishment questioned the Jewishness of the Ethiopians. The Rabbinate demanded ritual immersion and totally rejected the authority of the kes, the respected religious leaders of the Ethiopian community. The insistence on immersion generated fears among the Ethiopians that the establishment wanted to turn them into second-class citizens by forcing them, and them alone, to undergo a humiliating ceremony.
True, in 1980s Israel the melting pot discourse had been supplanted by a new discourse espousing cultural pluralism, the mixing and fusion of cultures; in practice, however, the newcomers were pressured to adapt to the dominant culture. In the service of this noble ideal, the youngsters were separated from their parents. The authorities effectively cast aside the so-called “generation of the desert” and sought to instill in the children the values of the integrating society, cutting them off from their past and their community’s traditions. No fewer than 90 percent of the Ethiopian children and adolescents were raised in closed boarding schools, most of them in religious institutions. In Ethiopia the family, both nuclear and extended, was at the center of life. In Israel the state exposed the children m to the disciplinary aspects of the educational system. In some institutions, 70 percent of the students were of Ethiopian origin. Warnings about ethnic segregation, however, went unheeded.
Although the absorption agents insisted that they would “not repeat the mistakes of the past” – referring mainly to the failures with the Mizrahim (Jews who immigrated to Israeli from North Africa and the Middle East in the 1950s) – they did just that. As in the past, the officials declared that the young people should be helped to adapt to a modern way of life and become Israelis in every respect. The binary approach made it possible to constitute the attitude toward the Ethiopians in terms simultaneously inclusionary and exclusionary. On the one hand, they were to be transformed into Western-style Jews and then into Israelis fitting into the hegemonic structure, while on the other hand, that very effort of transmutation relegated them to a status of inferiority, as it is incompatible with their culture and outlook.
The immigrants were also frustrated and embittered because of the day-to-day discrimination they endured. Veteran Israelis did not want to sit next to them on the bus and they did not receive an equal opportunity in the job market. Classrooms and schools emptied out when young Ethiopians entered them, and private kindergartens refused to accept Ethiopian toddlers because they were “different.” Indeed, everyday life, exposed the color barrier and brought to the surface racist tendencies in Israel between Jew and Jew. There was no residential integration, no intermarriage, and no integration in education.

All that missing was a cause, which appeared on January 24, 1996, when a newspaper report stated that for the past 12 years the Blood Bank had not been using the blood of Ethiopian Israelis for medical purposes because of its possible contamination by the HIV virus. The report generated protests of a sort rarely seen in the country. Some 10,000 Ethiopian immigrants from all over Israel, held a protest demonstration outside the Prime Minister’s Office in Jerusalem. It was a moment of truth with a significant Durkheimean element, of conferring name and meaning on the feelings of frustration and discrimination. The violent clash went on for hours, and dozens of policemen and demonstrators were injured. The crowd carried placards reading “We are black but our blood is red,” and “We are Jews like you: stop the racist apartheid.” A 17-year-old girl who came to Jerusalem for the demonstration from the Haifa area, where she attended a boarding school, said, “I came to protest against what is being done to the blacks because of the color of their skin. I am ashamed of my nation, of the white Jewish nation.” The Chief of the Jerusalem District Police, Aryeh Amit, labeled the demonstrators “young savages.” Indeed, to everyone’s surprise, the “boy savage” turned out not to be harmless, pleasant, and passive. “They think they know better than we do what’s good for us,” one of the participants summed up.
The huge demonstration, however, did not help much. The Ministry of Health announced that it would continue with its policy of not making use of blood taken from Ethiopians, as they constituted a “risk group.” By invoking this term, the state officials intended to shift the discourse in a direction that would serve their ends. Their bureaucratic medical discourse is based on a division of reality into generalized categories and endeavors, and to justify discriminatory policy by evoking fears, in this case fears of AIDS, following the line that was presented by Ulrich Beck in his “risk society. Thus the Health Ministry frightened the public by revealing that an Ethiopian blood donor was 34 times more likely to be a carrier than anyone else.
More than once, racism appears through the definition of an immigrant group by certain disease and the fear of contamination. As though to illustrate the point, Dr. Ram Yishai, the chairman of the Society of Medical Ethics, explained that the Ethiopians constituted a risk group because single Ethiopian women did not abstain from random sexual contact. Elaborating, the learned physician stated that the Ethiopian women were not afraid of AIDS and that, if infected, they displayed no anger at the man responsible. Again the litany of familiar terms was invoked: ignorance, a different conception of sex and death, sexual permissiveness that differs from the Israeli norm, the good of the public, and so forth. Probably, too, the Ethiopians were angry at not having been given the information or being allowed to share in deciding policy. The integrating society perceived the stranger, the other, the black as a child or a native who lacks sufficient maturity to be told the truth or cope with it.
The Blood Affair became something of a moment of truth for the Ethiopian Jews. The affront sustained by them showed that they could not, and perhaps did not want to discard entirely their traditions and their past. “Blood is the soul,” I was told by interviewees who explained the cause of the violent outburst in the Blood Affair. In Ethiopia, blood served as a symbolic means to distinguish Jews from Christians in three areas: ritual slaughter of animals, the dietary laws, and the categorization of women in their menstrual period as unclean. To the Ethiopians in Israel, discarding blood taken from them was an act of exclusion.

Rumors about suicides of Ethiopians in the army were already circulating by the time of the Blood Affair. The chairman of the committee of Ethiopian immigrants claimed that twenty Ethiopians had committed suicide in the past few years. The army claimed that the figure was far lower. The main point, however, is that the rumors showed a change in the immigrants’ attitude toward the army. At first, the young people wanted nothing more than to excel in the IDF, to do combat duty, preferably in one of the elite units. Excellence in the army was perceived as a rite of passage leading to acceptance in the Israeli society. Gradually, however, they realized that army service, far from resolving their problems, might aggravate them instead. In the second half of the 1990s we find, along with the suicide phenomenon, a decline in the Ethiopian Jews’ motivation to serve and excel in the army. In part, the disappointment was due to the fact that the combat soldiers discovered that they could not translate their service into social mobility. Many of them found it difficult to earn a living.

This behavior in part was a clear manifestation of what James C. Scott calls “everyday forms of resistance,” a desire to overcome a discriminatory, alienating reality, in our case, at the price of escaping military service or even by means of suicide. Similarly, the rising crime rate among young Ethiopians in the late 1990s should be seen as a form of subversion and of criticism of the society. The social welfare agencies, appalled by this trend, viewed it as proof that an identity crisis existed and that the young Ethiopians were drifting toward the margins of the society. In fact, it is the other way around, those involved are looking for meaning and a sense of community. In their way, they are also protesting actively against a reality that had made them and the rest of the community passive and dependent. At the same time, there was an element of the new in this development, a show of differentiation and distinctiveness that shattered the stereotypical view of the community as modest and quiet. As though to prove that the youngsters were rebelling against the image that was foisted on them, 16-18 year-olds, asked how they react to being called kushi, a term that connotes a slave in their culture, replied unequivocally that whereas in the past they had been offended and backed off, now they would lash out at anyone who used the term and “let him have it,” in the word of one of them.
The Ethiopian immigrants displayed further manifestations of subversion in relation to marriage. Not all of them were willing to undergo the Rabbinate’s humiliating rituals and tests – which were earmarked for Ethiopians alone – in order to take out a marriage license. The interviews showed that members of the community had found various ways to solve the problem. Some couples live together without marrying; others are married in the traditional Ethiopian ceremony by a kes, even though this is not recognized by the Rabbinate or the state.

However, this was not enough for the young Ethiopians. Their subversive practices were accompanied by an attempt to construct a new identity by challenging the hegemonic structure while exploiting its widening cracks. The identity politics they practiced involved deconstructing the “one” Israeli identity, exposing its problematic nature, and reconstructing it in terms of their conceptual approach. In Gilroy’s terms, this is a process of deconstruction and contextualization. Identity is reconstructed such that it is context dependent. Fundamentally, since the Blood Affair, Israeliness for young Ethiopians has gradually become an identity one element of which is blackness. The passage of time will make no difference,” I was told by one interviewee, who had a clear grasp of the reality in which she lives. “In Ethiopia we were Jews, here we are blacks,” another said.
Africa, observes Stuart Hall, is often depicted as being a mother for all Africans. The effect is to bestow an imagined cohesiveness and shared identity on Africans’ experience of dispersion and fragmentation, a feeling that there exists a permanent “essence” of the African, of the quintessential black experience. However, as Hall, too, points out, identity development is a far more active process, in which those involved attempt to locate themselves in the space of the presence and adapt to changing reality. Indeed, blackness is not the only distinguishing characteristic of this group. In discotheques, for example, these youngsters do not mix with foreign workers from Africa, who are not Jewish. In fact, quarrels and fights between the two groups have been known to erupt. The process of constructing a new identity intertwines similarity and differentiation. The young Ethiopians differ from other Israelis and resemble blacks in other countries; yet, as Israelis and Jews the resemblance is not complete. As young student told me: I am first of all a Jew, then an Ethiopian, and finally an Israeli… In fact, I am also an Israeli but different from these franjim.

Thus the Israeli experience – “white,” discriminatory, exclusionary – is sending the young generation back to their roots in Africa. Many have begun to study spoken and written Amharic, a language that they have almost forgotten. The members of the young generation are also taking African names. As one student explained, “A few of us friends got together and decided to go back to our original names. Why weren’t the Russians made to change their names when they came to Israel?” They want to visit Ethiopia and they like Amharic music, both traditional and modern, with its romantic themes. The Africa they envisage is of course not the Africa they knew as children; it is an imagined Africa. It is an Africa of rhythm, of special foods and customs, of suffering and hope. An Africa that is both present and vanished, in any event an Africa of blacks only.
By the end of the 1990s, black Jewish Israel defined itself as part of the African diaspora. That is a definition with a cultural and a political meaning that cannot simply be ignored. The cultural practices of the Ethiopian Israelis draw their inspiration largely from the politics and culture of black America, Jamaica, and black Britain. Technological advances in communications bridge geographic distance: consider MTV and the Internet. Cultural commodities, such as CDs, books, and magazines facilitate identification. The young people invent a history of their own. People who in Ethiopia lived on a motif of exile and longing for Zion, meaning Jerusalem, now live in Israel with a sense of exile and a longing for Zion, which is of course Ethiopia, as in the song by Bob Marley. True, they came to Israel of their own volition, and for religious reasons, and from this point of view their history is different from that of the descendants of the slaves who were exiled forcibly from Africa and transported to America. Nevertheless, the youngsters identify with the history of their “brothers”: their suffering, their severance from their past, the discrimination and the poverty they endure, and their yearning for the Black Continent. Africa becomes the lost paradise. The longing to return to lost origins, to beginnings, is of course impractical, though the symbolic, too, is fraught with meaning. This is their narrative and with it they constitute their contemporary identity.

The anthropologist Malka Shabtai has analyzed the content of the music that the young Ethiopians are fond of: above all, black music of political protest with social messages of equality, brotherhood, and peace. Usually, they dance to reggae or rap. The fact that Rastafarianism originated in Jamaica in 1930, after the coronation of Haile Selassie as Emperor of Ethiopia, with the belief in him as the “Lion of Judah,” helps explain why young Ethiopian Israelis are attracted also to this music. Shabtai interviewed an Israeli reggae singer named Emanuel, the soloist of the “Roots of Africa” group. “The story of the Jews of Ethiopia is in some ways similar to the story of the blacks in Africa,” he said. “There are a lot of things that are, you know, parallel.”

Written by Tseday

September 7, 2008 at 12:25 am

TUNDE KELANI’S LATEST INTERVIEW WITH POSITION TV,JUNE,2009-OUR GREATEST AFRICAN/YORUBA FILM MAKER! -FROM GUARDIAN NEWSPAPERS

June 6, 2009

OUR GREATEST YORUBA FILM MAKER!

OUR GREATEST YORUBA FILM MAKER!

FROM ngrguardiannews.com

Friday, June 05, 2009

Tunde Kelani’s cinematographic life on Position TV
By Michael Orie

POSITION TV featured its first non-visual arts personality on Thursday. The encounter with cinematographer Tunde Kelani focused on issues surrounding the production of films in Africa, the hopes and the impediments. The interview, which ran on Silverbird TV yesterday from 11a.m. represents a bold attempt at examining the bourgeoning film industry especially in the context of evolving technologies.

Tunde Kelani has been at the forefront of a production of cultural films using contemporary themes to paint on the canvas of indigenous myths and traditions. As a director of photography whose primary function area is the photography of the moving image, Kelani tells the story as much as the screenwriter. His passion is to use lights, both natural and contrived, to create images, organize his visual landscapes and to interpret the narrative in concrete terms.

His answer to the regular question, why do you do what you do? Is that he drew a real passion for photography very early in life. He managed to own his first still camera in elementary school and never learned to use it, despite being his regular companion, for many years. It was at Abeokuta Grammar School, that his vision and passion for capturing the world through images grew. The rich Yoruba culture of his immediate townscape, the rockhills of Egba, the sheer splendour of the flora of the deep rainforest surrounding brought the assurances of a fully committed life’s pursuit.

That he would wind up working for the new television arm of the Nigerian Broadcasting Service was inevitable. And from there, he went directly to London Film School, graduating with a professional diploma after a session.

The period of Kelani’s induction into the budding cinema industry in Nigeria coincided with the time of the production of the first generation of indigenous Nigerian films. This period, with all of its hopes and excitements was short-lived. African cinema nose-dived with the declining national economies. Even so did the cinema going culture, which all through the decade following the national independence was practically enjoying a boom.

Kelani thinks the cinema failed primarily because of the absence of the enabling government policies and infrastructure.

That absence itself was the direct result of African politicians not coming to terms with the role of cinema in the building of a nation. Its powers of persuasion that could have been employed to promote development goals, its capabilities as a tool for engendering national pride and racial identity.

Kelani declared that “It was a mistake, and it is still a mistake to leave our film production culture to market forces.

“Before the advent of Nollywood, which emerged and has sustained itself unassisted by the state, Africa practically allowed others to tell her stories for her,” he said.

On the issue of good practice and performance quality especially in Nollywood, he is optimistic that quality is generally on the rise. And he surprised the crew by expressing dissatisfaction even with his own work.

“A lot of work has been done by our establishment here which people appreciate a lot, but they can be done better, with more resources at our disposal. Take our latest movie “Arugba”, for example. We have returned to the film location on several occasions when we had a little more money that we felt we could use to improve on certain aspects of the work”.

But things are bound to be better off for someone like him, than it would be for, say, an upstart. He didn’t entirely agree.

“I think we have been privileged. I have a good education in film production. I have been well exposed. At the time we started things were not as difficult as they are now.

“What can you do when power supply is far from guaranteed? Who wants to buy a film when they have no electricity supply in the house to watch a DVD? I don’t think we have sat down yet to seriously consider how much this country loses because of the unimpressive power sector. You see, that is a real problem for all of us”.

Kelani’s latest film was recently adopted by the Lagos State Government for a series of mobile cinema exhibitions in all the local government areas of the state. That experience of being on the road he is quite grateful for. It is not only reminiscent of the Yoruba traveling theatre tradition which he remembers so well as a very young adult in Ibadan (he was an avid follower of the theatre trends at the erstwhile popular proscenium stage theatre in Ibadan, Obisesan Hall), in recent years, Kelani’s Mainframe crew has engaged in extensive community cinema work in Benin Republic.

“Mobile cinema is one of the ways we can get ahead in the face of our NEPA problem”.

Another interesting revelation from the programme is the discussion on Oshodi. Position TV asked to know if his choice of Oshodi was deliberate and if he gets his stories from his densely populated surrounding. Many writers and artists like to touch base with the people. For example, British-Nigerian author and film writer Biyi Bandele moved down to Brixton in London from the more middle-class setting of Battersea.

Kelani replies: “I have enjoyed living and working in Oshodi. I cannot claim that I have not been inspired by it. We dedicated one of the settings in our film, Ole Ku to Oshodi as a way of documenting it. Nobody knew that Oshodi was going to transform so suddenly. With hindsight, we would have done more work, taken more pictures. All that is now gone. It is a bitter sweet situation”.

MICHELLE OBAMA!-HAVING A BLACK SKINNED BEAUTY AS THE FIRST BLACK FIRST LADY WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR ALL BLACK WOMEN!-FROM NEWSWEEK,NOV. 2008

June 6, 2009

MICHELLE OBAMA IS A BLACK SKINNED BEAUTY!

MICHELLE OBAMA IS A BLACK SKINNED BEAUTY!

from newsweek.com

Charles Ommanney / Getty Images for Newsweek
Michelle Obama, in Sioux City, Iowa.

OPINION
What Michelle Can Teach Us

Forget Claire Huxtable. She could be a real-life role model for black women.

By Allison Samuels | NEWSWEEK
Published Nov 1, 2008
From the magazine issue dated Nov 10, 2008

Throughout this long, tense election, everyone has focused on the presidential candidates and how they’ll change America. Rightly so. But selfishly, I’m more fascinated by Michelle Obama and what she might be able to do, not just for this country, but for me as an African-American woman. As the potential First Lady, she would have the world’s attention. And that means that for the first time people will have a chance to get up close and personal with the type of African-American woman they so rarely see.

Usually, the lives of black women go largely unexamined. The prevailing theory seems to be that we’re all hot-tempered single mothers who can’t keep a man and, according to CNN’s “Black in America,” documentary, those of us who aren’t street-walking crack addicts are on the verge of dying from AIDS. As writer Rebecca Walker put it on her Facebook page: “CNN should call me next time they really want to show diversity and meet real black women that nobody seems to talk about.”

Like Walker, I too know more than my share of black women who have little in common with the black female images I see in the media. My “sistafriends” are mostly college educated, in healthy, productive relationships and have a major aversion to sassy one-liners. They are teachers, doctors and business owners. Of course, there are those of us who never get the chance to pull it together. And we accept and embrace them—but their stories can’t and shouldn’t be the only ones told.

Yet pop culture continues to hold a very unevolved view of African-American women. Take HBO’s new vampire saga “True Blood.” Even in the world of make-believe, black women still can’t escape the stereotype of being neck-swirling, eye-rolling, oversexed females raised by our never-married, alcoholic mothers. Where is Claire Huxtable when you need her?

These images have helped define the way all black women are viewed, including Michelle Obama. Before she ever gets the chance to commit to a cause, charity or foundation as First Lady, her most urgent and perhaps most complicated duty may be simply to be herself.

It won’t be easy. Since her emergence on the national scene, Obama has been deemed radical, divisive and the adjective that no modern-day black woman can live without: angry. Thankfully, so far, she’s endured these demeaning accusations with a smile and shrug—at least in public. But if she does end up in the White House, continuing to dial back her straightforward, vibrant personality isn’t the answer. In the same way that Eleanor Roosevelt, Jackie Kennedy and Hillary Clinton each redefined what it meant to be First Lady, Michelle will forge her own path. Not only will she draw the usual criticisms, but she’ll be open to some new ones too. I eagerly await the public reaction if Sasha and Malia ever sport cornrows or afro puffs on the South Lawn. And if Michelle decides to champion a program that benefits black youth, will her critics slam her for being too parochial?
To be fair, Hillary Clinton’s early involvement in her husband’s administration (think health-care reform) brought a major backlash. But there’s no real evidence of Michelle Obama’s desire to be a huge presence in her husband’s potential administration. Besides helping military families, we don’t even have many clues about what projects she might tackle.

Whatever she does, I hope she doesn’t fall victim to critics with little point of reference. Take this month’s issue of Town and Country magazine. An article—written by a white female reporter—offers advice to both potential First Ladies. The writer suggests Cindy McCain let her “personality and experience shine” and motivate others to give back.

For Michelle, the writer suggests that she avoid “popping off when your guard is down” and to be careful “about how, when and if she injects her ethnicity … into her platform as First Lady.”

The underlying message is that the last thing anyone needs to be reminded of is that Michelle Obama is all black, unlike her husband, who is mixed—as the writer points out for seemingly no reason.

And that speaks to the larger issue that Michelle Obama could pose for the media. Because few mainstream publications have done in-depth features on regular African American women (and no, Halle Berry, Oprah and Beyoncé don’t count), little is known about who we are, what we think and what we face on a regular basis. For better or worse, Michelle will become a stand-in for us all.

Just as she will have her critics, she will also have millions of adoring fans who usually have little interest in the First Lady. African-American blogs such as Sisterlicious, Black Girls Rock and That Black Girl Group have all written about what they’d like to see Michelle bring to the White House—mainly showing the world that a black woman can support her man and raise a strong black family. As contributor Felicia Jones wrote on one blog, “Michelle Obama will be the hero my little girls have been looking for. The hero doesn’t have to shake her booty or point her finger to get noticed and respected. My little girls finally have a role model.” Michelle will have to work to please everyone—an impossible task. But for many African-American women like me, just a little of her poise, confidence and intellect will go a long way in changing an image that’s been around for far too long.

© 2008

“THE ORIGINAL WEST AFRICANS OF ANCIENT GREECE!!!-THE BLACK(FIRST) EUROPEANS PART III-GENETIC LINAGES BETWEEN WEST AFRICA AND ANCIENT GREECE”

May 30, 2009

FROM africanresource.com
RASTA LIVEWIRE SECTION
Original West Africans Of Ancient Greece!!! The Black (First) Europeans III
Genetic Linkages Between West Africa and Ancient Greece:

HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses.

The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers.

The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.).

2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable.

3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations.

4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases.

5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers.

6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.

Authors:

Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain.

Tissue Antigens. 2002 Aug;60(2):111-21.

PMID: 12392505 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

Article: Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.

You are reading Rasta Livewire. For all things Africa, visit AfricaResource: The Place for Africa on the Net.

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Posted in Rastas.

By Don Jaide June 10, 2006

143 Responses
Stay in touch with the conversation, subscribe to the RSS feed for comments on this post.

Skeptic said
on June 12, 2006 Typical black excitment over this discredited article. Pitiful. See my other arguments here

African Roots of Ireland

Black Like The Ancient Europeans: The Black (First) Europeans

The The Africans Who Discovered Europe — Black (First) Europeans Part II

Jahdey said
on June 12, 2006 Septic

You really do need an education.

You must be very far behind cutting edge genetic population mapping conducted by your mini-gods of main stream establishment.

See Cavili Sofaza, goggle P. Underhill, also goggle for S.O.Y. Keita just for starters. Perhaps their authority will save you more embarrasment.

I doubt it though. Because some classical literature had once said: “Give not pearls to swines, otherwise they will trample them underfeet.”

Your obstinacy in light of evidence is pitiful. Your whinning is turning to a whimper.

I feel your fear and your angst. But the truth must be spread inspite of people like you.

You are lost in wishful thinking and shallow thoughts. You have lost your way in racialist “Aryan revisionism”.

Yet, Aryanism is a lost cause like your Daddy Hitler. Because, 10,000 years of Black History, could not be wiped away so easily.

Jahdey

Jahdey said
on June 12, 2006 From Jahdey to the Septic Troll: Read and comprehend.

Genetic Linkages Demonstrating African/Greece Connections:

Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQallele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first timedetermined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, par-ticularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-join-ing dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. Thefollowing conclusions have been reached:

1) Macedonians belong to the‘‘older’’ Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), Arab-NorthAfricans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Ar-menians and Iranians,

2) Macedonians are not related with geographicallyclose Greeks, who do not belong to the ‘‘older’’ Mediterranenan substratum,

3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiop-ian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. BothGreeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305,*0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310.Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharangroups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks clusterwith Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms andcorrespondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displace-ment of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

The highly polymorphic HLA system has been validated as useful fordistinguishing and/or relating populations (and individuals) in manyresearch studies since the first International HLA AnthropologyWorkshop (Evian, 1973) and in all the subsequent seven InternationalWorkshops. HLA gene frequencies correlate with geographically re-lated populations. The existence or absence of gene flow among neighbouring ethnic groups may be assessed with the study of HLAfrequencies and the corresponding genetic distances (1, 2).Ancient Macedonians were among the peoples that lived be-tween northern Greece (Thessaly) and Thrace in the Balkans andwere considered by the classical Greeks as ‘‘non-Greek barbarians’’that could not participate in the Greek Olympic Games (3).

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks (pdf)

Septic troll, any more arguments???

One love to all

Jahdey

Skeptic said
on June 13, 2006 “I feel your fear and your angst. But the truth must be spread inspite of people like you.

You are lost in wishful thinking and shallow thoughts.”

Isn’t it interesting how that’s exactly what I would say to describe you. So often we project our own problems onto others. By the way, you’ve never refuted my other comments elsewhere.

I don’t submit to “Aryan revisionism” or “Aryanism”, nor do I admire Hitler, and I don’t need to to disagree with you.

“Septic troll, any more arguments???”

Yes: Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit

“Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”

“The limitations are made evident by the authors’ extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups.”

“We believe that the paper [the one cited in this essay] should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.”

That from Cavalli-Sforza. Also, this: Racial Reality and Greeks

Jahdey said
on June 14, 2006 Sceptic

I found this on your referenced link:

“A recent paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks ….. [then there is] the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.”

(Semino et al., Am J Hum Genet, 2004)

Do you understand what haplogroup E3B is? That is a quintessentially African lineage. (Underhill, et al). E3B is found in Tanzania, Kenya, and Mozambique.

Haplogroup J is another ancient African lineage found in Ethiopians, Sudanese, Egyptian, Afro-Arabs of Yemen and some South Africans, especially marker J-M267. (S.O.Y. Keita)

Besides, when you see terms like “Middle Eastern haplogroup” think the Black Arabs. The Sabeans, Habasha, Yemenites, Omanis etc. Old East African population who crossed the Red Sea to the opposite coast. They still live there today, they still come black.

If you are able to find a paper that positively refutes Greek/African connections please post it. Until you can do so, the burden of proof remains on you.

On another note, I have not bothered refuting your foolishness since you have always undermined all your arguments with inconsistent logic and shallow generalization. Your illogical analysis are your greatest undoing. I make an exception this time.

Additionally, perhaps you are the only one who has yet to understand that ancient Egypt was an African civilization. The pale skin Aryans (especially the Nordic albino types) have never and will never attain to the heights of ancient Egypt. Nothing in Euroland in the past or in the future could ever equal Kemit.

Ancient Egyptians were an African people. Dark and lovely like they could ever come. Take a trip to Egypt and look on the monuments and the people with your eyes. That is why ancient Egyptians called their country Kem (The Black Country) and called themselves Kemites (Black people). Nowhere have I ever come across ancient Kemites refering to themselves as pale skin people.

Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, (ancient Greeks) who actually saw the Kemites, spoke with them and slept in their country told us that Kemites were dark, and had curly hair, like the Ethiopians and the Sudanese their neighbour. But yes, I forget, in your twisted thinking all those are “Black white people”.

Anyway, you still have much learning to do. I will not be your teacher. Go read some real books. You spend too much time prowling red neck aryanist websites.

Jahdey

Skeptic said
on June 14, 2006 “Haplogroup J is another ancient African lineage found in Ethiopians, Sudanese, Egyptian, Afro-Arabs of Yemen and some South Africans. (S.O.Y. Keita)”

Actually, it’s a Middle Eastern haplogroup.

“Do you understand what haplogroup E3B is? That is a quintessentially African lineage. (Underhill, et al). E3B is found in Tanzania, Kenya, and Mozambique.”

A Northeast African (i.e. Caucasoid) haplogroup. Both spread with the Neolithic expansion of agriculture, neither from black Africa, hardly “quintessential“.

You can also click on the pretty little pictures at the bottom of that frame to see some non-black Northeast Africans. Also, just in case you’ve forgotten, here are some more.

“If you are able to find a paper that positively refutes Greek/African connections please post it. Until you can do so, the burden of proof remains on you.”

Okay. Or – how ’bout you produce some convincing evidence of your claims, since they go against the grain of established knowledge, and since all you have to rely on is a discredited paper.

“I have not bothered refuting your foolishness since you have always undermined all your arguments with inconsistent logic and shallow generalization. Your illogical analysis are your greatest undoing.”

Oh of course. Thanks for clearing that up. Or, could it perhaps be because you *can’t* refute them because they’re *truthful*, and that all you have are nonsensical evaluations like above quoted one?

“perhaps you are the only one who has yet to understand that ancient Egypt was an African civilization.”

“The only one” – trust me, I’m not the only one who disagrees with you. African, yes; black, no, as I’ve already explained

“The pale skin Aryans (especially the Nordic albino types) have never and will never attain to the heights of ancient Egypt. Nothing in Euroland in the past or in the future could ever equal Kemit.”

Yet more obsession with skin tone. As I’ve pointed out before, vilifying the skin color of others reveals your own insecurity about, and perhaps even twisted shame of, your own skin color. As for achievements, the West has already surpassed any previous civilization with the examples I’ve already given; and I’ve already explained to you that the “Nordic albino types” aren’t confined to Northern Europe, or even to Europe at all. Care to elaborate on why you believe they’re so different from other white people? All you have to put your faith in is “Kemet”; and wasn’t it you, by the way, who asked me what non-Southern Europeans have ever done (which question I also answered, without response)? How about asking yourself the same about non-North Africans?

“Ancient Egyptians were an African people.”

Already covered

“Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, (ancient Greeks) who actually saw the Kemites, spoke with them and slept in their country told us that Kemites were dark, and had curly hair, like the Ethiopians and the Sudanese their neighbour.”

Well, Jahdey, I have another link for you (that I may have already posted) that, surely, you’ll just dismiss with absurd rantings because you can’t challenge it intelligently.

“Anyway, you still have much learning to do. I will not be your teacher. Go read some real books. You spend too much time prowling red neck aryanist websites.”

*I* have much learning to do? LOL. Okay. Well, since the definition of “education” has been questioned on this page and has thence remained nebulous here, I’ll venture to assume you mean brainwashing myself with your feel-good literature. And since that’s what I’m taking it to mean, I’ll kindly decline your recommendation that I read some “real” books. As for that racial reality site, I posted it only for the genetic studies.

Anyway, at least this post of yours was more decent than some of your others have been.

Jahdey said
on June 15, 2006 Sceptic

Either you are one bad liar or one bad functional illiterate. E3B is found in the highest occurence in Africa.

Read:

Product Y – HAPLOGROUP E3b SUBGROUP SNP TEST

This product will be of interest to those who have been tested by our Product 1 or 2 or have a haplotype (e.g., 10 to 43 STR markers) which strongly points to haplogroup E3b, and who wish to have the Y chromosome tested for every marker that is not exceedingly rare or redundant and has been found associated with this haplogroup. The object is to locate the specific E3b subgroup.

Y haplogroup E3b is very diverse and can be found in highest concentrations in East and North Africa and scattered about Western Asia and Europe in various “hotspots”. For example E3b is common (e.g., 30%) in the Balkan countries such as Albania and some locations in for example Spain and Greece, but is frequently unobserved (or only at a few percentage points) in say Britain, Poland, Denmark and Norway. As a general rule its frequency decreases from south to north.

As with haplogroup J, likely some of the E3b found in Britain may have arrived there in Neolithic times with the advent and spread of farming; or may have a more recent history as a result for example of migrations from regions of the Roman Empire after the invasion of England in 43 AD. It is also one of the haplogroups found in relatively high percentages in those with Jewish ancestry.

………

Haplogroup E3b Subgroup SNP Test

More:

The human Y-chromosome haplogroup E is characterized by the mutations SRY4064, M96, and P29, on a background defined by the insertion of an Alu element (YAP+) (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). Two of the three branches of haplogroup E, the major clades E1 and E2, have been observed almost exclusively on the African continent, where their distribution has been analyzed in detail (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002). The third branch, the clade E3, defined by the mutation P2, is the only one that has also been observed in Europe and in western Asia, where it has generally been found at frequencies >http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n7/full/5201390a.html
Also check out these for more interesting info…
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/09/racial-affinities-of-prehistoric-east.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/03/x-chromosome-haplotype-of-recent-origin.html

sam said
on February 18, 2008 this does not make us any less of what we as a nation are (hellenic) I love saying that i am hellenic, that my ancestors had connections with the world, the best civilizations interacted with us, everyone wanted to think ‘greek’ to speak greek was education. if you did a dna sample of me, you might not find that i am “100%” greek. even if i did find this out, i know where my country is, i know what culture and people i love which is mine the Hellenic!

Dave said
on February 18, 2008 The Spanish study has been proven by many unbiased scientists who study genetic to be false. Every single study done by legit scientist on this subject matter very clearly show that Greeks are not related to Ethiopians at all. Greeks both ancient and modern cluster with other white European people not Africans. Which is why all their statues and even today Greeks depict themselves as caucasian Europeans and not black Africans.

Jahdey said
on February 18, 2008 Dave and The Jimmy

Your responses demonstrate that you guys are barely literate.

Arnaiz’s study has been validated several times over contrary to the deliberate misinformation and lies peddled by hate motivated racist sponsored Racial Reality and Dieneke’s web site.

You have been duped by bad men! Misled by very bad liars!

Go figure:

http://onedroprule.org/about1335.html

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 19, 2008 Jahdey, it goes to without reason that you would believe the misinformation that you find in any dubious on line sites and then try to perpetrate a myth that has been proven to be nothing but fallacies by many unbiased sources who work in the field of genetics. Arnaiz’s study has been discredited by legit scientists all over the world time and again. That piece of misinformation that you posted is nothing but lies based on once again Arnaiz’s study. First off that is based on the dubious research work of Arnaiz’s study as they used the same SINGLE genetic marker HLA-DRB1 that Arnaiz-Villena used to come to the same fallacy of a conclusion and as it was pointed out by geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, who have argued successfully that the scientific limitations of using a SINGLE genetic marker, HLA-DRB1 methodology, that the Tunesians and Arnaiz used and I quote “Even a cursory look at the papers diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA-DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker particularly one likely to have undergone selection for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.” End quote. Also there is no historic or archeological evidence of any supposed displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopic people, during the Pharaonic period in the Greek region as the dubious papers claim. So stating it as a supposed ‘fact’ when in reality it is nothing but fallacies with no evidence to back up their theories, questions the neutral point that certain individuals have on this issue. As it is correctly stated by unbiased sources who have conducted many test on the subject matter using not only the same SINGLE genetic marker but multiple-marker analysis, they have yet to ever duplicated Arnaiz-Villena’s and the Tunisian research which raises questions about the HLA-DRB1 methodology results. For example, Ayub 2003 used 182 loci (as opposed to Villena’s and the Tunisians ones) to group several world populations based on genetic distances. Their results reveal Greeks’ both ancient and modern distance far from Africans, and have closeness to other CACAUSIAN Europeans. If you want to find men who have been misled and duped everyone, just look in your mirror.

Jahdey said
on February 19, 2008 Dave

The wise say thet ignorance is a killer. HLA-DRB1 or any HLA for that matter is a gene-based protein that can be used to deduce population movement.

Arnzia is a master molecular geneticist of the highest ranking and an authority in genetical analysis. His works stand the test of time.

Arnzia’s genetical study of the Greek genes is still valid and has been corroborated by the identification of other genetic connections.

From a molecular genetic perspective, Y Haplogroups E3B, DE, A, PN2, K2, have been identified in Greeks. These haplogroups are related directly to African Y haplogroups. E3B is from East Africa, DE* is suspected to arise from Nigeria, K2 is East African and can be found all along the coast of East Africa.

In addition, clinical analysis have also confirmed the presence of the following African specific genes in modern Greeks: Hemoglobin Haplotype 19, Beta Thalassemia genes, Alpha Thalassemia genes.

Nordic Europeans like yourself do not present these genes as frequently as they are encountered in the Greek Islands and mainland.

You must rid your mind of your foolish and baseless aversion for simple everyday truth.

Go and read this article here for better elucidation:

http://onedroprule.org/about1335.html

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 19, 2008 Jahdey, ignorance seems to be the only thing you are familiar with given your statements on this subject matter. You are also wrong in regards to what molecular genetic Y Haplogroups are found in Greeks. For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated:

Haplogroup DE is found in very small % in male populations of Nigeria which proves to be that of a much LATER MUTATION introduced INTO that African regions’ population not from as you falsely state. The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.

As far as E3B goes, this Hg can be found through out most of Europe and it is best that one states clearly which sub-group of the E3B (E-M78a – which is not found in black africans but it is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan areas not into it) is found in Caucasian Europeans like the Greeks. BTW, E-M78a that Greeks and other Europeans share chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe. The alpha cluster is a mutation that arose in the Balkan peninsula of Europe from an earlier marker with a Near Eastern origin, according to Cruciani et al. 2004 :

“Although E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (from northern Africa to Europe and from eastern to northern Africa, respectively), the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78α within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78a, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East. These data are hard to reconcile with the hypothesis of a uniform spread of a single Near Eastern gene pool into southeastern Europe”. – Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022. Published online 2004 March 24.

“Outside of East Africa, its two most prevalent clades are E-M81 (referred to as the “Berber marker”), which reaches frequencies of up to 80% in North Africa, and E-M78α, which has its highest frequencies in southeastern Europe (up to 30%) but is found throughout the continent, marking a recent expansion from the Balkan Peninsula.” –

The East African connection is as distant as that of E-M81. And indeed, E-M78α that Europeans belong to is not found at all in the Horn of Africa.

As it was stated before using a SINGLE genetic marker, in this case the DRB1, as Arnaiz & the Tunisians did in basically the same study is unreliable and dubious. Also Arnazia research was funded by such biased mongrels as Soros and the nation of FYROMia, hardly credible or unbiased by anyone’s standards. Also that Tunisian fallacy that you posted did not analyze any Greek genetic material, nor did any unbiased laboratory contribute to their research. Their results were taken straight from those of Arnaiz-Villena and thus they repeated the same false conclusions that Aranzia concluded. In other words, they just used Arnazia’s dubious research work; they did not contribute nor verify anything new to the said study. Arnzia’s genetical study of the Greek genes is not valid at all and has been disproved by credible geneticists from around the world.

All haplogroups are related too and through evolution different Hg are created. It took 10,000 years for E3b to split off from e3a. Similar to the creation of a new species –with the exception that humans are the same species and haven’t diverged to the point that we can’t interbreed and produce viable offspring. The first humans started out as one interbreeding population(with the same features, genotype, etc.), then there became a barrier to gene flow (East Africans vs. Sub-Saharan Africans), this barrier caused differientation because of different selective pressures in phenotype and genotype (East Africans i.e. “elongated” features associated with caucasoids, but retaining pigmented (melanin, a natural sunblock) skin because they live in Africa. When the proto-Eurasians left East Africa, some went to Europe others to Asia. They continued to differentiate and evolve to the environments where they settled. In Europe, this differentiation wasn’t as much because the first Paleolithic Europeans couldn’t go very far into Europe since it was covered with ice(read about Last Glacial Maximum, not adapted for that environment) during the last Ice Age, this caused them to be restricted to refugia of Southern Europe in Iberia, Italy, Greece, Anatolia, etc. and only expanded to the rest of Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum –which is why Europeans like English, Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Albanians, etc. are very closely genetically related; migration to other regions was not possible and they’ve been living together for a long time; they have only in relatively recent in human history been a separate populations. To try and claim southern Europeans , i.e Greeks, Italians, Spanish, French, etc. as “Africans” NOW because e3b came out of Africa, is a slippery slope to genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic. Everybody came out of Africa. There are significant and distinct stages in phenotype and genotype that lead to the different founding populations of the world since people left Africa. Ancient and modern Greeks are genetically further apart from black Africans as most other Europeans are.

Afrocentric like yourself do not present any of the genes found in either ancient or modern Greeks. I suggest stop trying to turn the whole world history and civilizations into something that its not, i.e. African black.

Dave said
on February 19, 2008 Finally the mere fact that you are trying to attribute such a heterogeneity disease as sickle cell as “ones place of ancestral origins” is astonishing. Sickle cell is contributed to malaria not some phantom African ancestry link as you so falsely stated. Misinformed statements like that reminds me of how not so long ago some would wrongly claim people who had sarcoidosis were of “African” origins at one time when in reality sarcoidosis occurs throughout the world in all races just as blood disorders. FWIIW: Sarcoidosis is most prevalent in Northern European countries. Also please learn the difference between blood disorders. Generally thalassemias are prevalent in populations that evolved in humid climates where malaria was endemic and it affects all races. Thalassemias are particularly associated with people of Mediterranean origin, Middle Easterners and Asians. A very low prevalence of Thalassemias has been reported from people of African origins (0.9%) and that is with those in northern Africa having the highest prevalence. Thalassemia was first discovered in people living around the Mediterranean Sea, they have persisted in such populations and geographical regions because having a copy of either gene protects against malaria.

“OVER THE GENERATIONS, THE SICKLE CELL TRAIT HAS THEREFORE REACHED HIGH FREQUENCIES IN MALARIOUS AREAS. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY.”

Malarious areas, the origins of sickel cell, are the result of war, famine, etc. The highest contribution of sickel cell is found in NORTHERN GREECE, and the countries that surround that region(Albania, Bulgaria, North West Turkey & FYRoM) because of the wars that ravaged that reason since the early 1900s until the end of the Greek civil war in the 1950s. Sickel cell is virtually not found in Southern Greeks.

“The prominent American geneticist James V. Neel was at first perplexed by the fact that beta thalassemia occurs with such a high frequency since the homozygous form of the condition, thalassemia major, is very serious and generally leads to premature death. He initially suspected a high rate of mutation. Eventually, however, Neel realized that the heterozygous form of beta thalassemia, as well as the sickle-cell disease that also consumed his early studies, provided individuals with resistance to malaria, thus making its preponderance in the human population understandable. Neel’s reasoning also helps explain why prevalence of beta thalassemia is greatest in people of Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, and south Asian heritage, since these parts of the world were historically beset with malaria.” – HUMAN PATHOLOGY

Beta & Alpha Thalassemia genes: not a genetic “African” link as some falsely claim: “The reason that the gene for beta thalassemia is found, for example, among people of Italian and Greek origin is that parts of Italy and Greece were once full of malaria. The presence of thalassemia minor (like sickle cell trait in Africa) afforded protection against malaria, and therefore, this gene thrived.” – Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine, McGraw-Hill, edited by Eugene Braunwald, et. al., 2001

“The high prevalence of thalassemias in malaria-infested regions led Haldane (1949) to propose that hetrozygotes for these lethal diseases have a selective advantage (Clegg and Weatherall 1999). [beta]-thalassemia, resulting from deficient production of the [beta]-globin chain. To date, over 180 different mutations leading to [beta]-thalassemia have been characterized around the world. The mutations show a characteristic GEOGRAPHIC distribution: for example, in the Mediterranean region, over 50 [beta]-thalassemia mutations have been characterized, among which two are clearly preponderant. IVS-I-110 (G[arrow right]A) is observed at high frequencies in the eastern part of the Mediterranean, whereas the mutation at codon 39 (C[arrow right]T) is very frequent in western Mediterranean countries. In Lebanon, IVS-I-110 represents 40% of thalassemia mutations, while stop codon 39 (Cd39) is quite rare (0.8%) and has been identified in only a few individuals so far (Table 1).” – Human Biology, Dec 2002 by Zahed, Laila, Demont, Jocelyne, Bouhass, Rachid, Trabuchet, Guy, Et al

“Population Genetics of the Turkish People. World data indicate that in regions where malaria and beta-thalassemia are less common a variety of beta-thalassemia mutations is found, whereas in regions with long histories of exposure to malaria only a small number of alleles account for most of the beta-thalassemia genes (Huisman et al. 1997). The geographical distribution of beta-thalassemia mutations in different regions of Turkey reflects a decreasing gradient of mutation numbers when moving from East to West Anatolia (Tadmouri et al. 1998a) (Figure 1). East Anatolia is a rugged region not conducive to the proper development of the malarial parasite. In contrast, the landscape of Thrace and West Anatolia is simpler and more suitable for the development and transmission of malaria. Interestingly, this mutation/malaria gradient can also be mirrored by the results of surveys conducted in Turkey between 1980 and 1995 that noted a regional beta-thalassemia trait frequency gradient increasing from East (3.4%) to West Anatolia and Thrace (11%).” – (Kocak et al. 1995; Aksoy et al. 1980; Aksoy et al. 1985; Kurkqiioglu et al. 1986; Bircan et al. 1993).

Jahdey said
on February 19, 2008 Devile

Spamming will not help you out. If you do not realize that Sickle cell is a genetically borne condition and that the haplotypes of the genes identify their geographic origin then you are not qualified to discuss with your betters. You are novice embarrasing yourself and seeking attention.

Anything genetic is blood borne. HBS haplogroup 19 found in Greeks is from Africa. Do you want citations? Real Greeks will never deny that. Some turkmen, or some serbs or some wannabe Northwestern Euro like you can come posture but it is all empty.

I doubt that you understand the implications of your posts but thanks for helping me make my case. Do you not see for yourself how many times Africa is invoked in those research? Can you read at all?

When you start reading more widely and applying interpretative faculties like humans should then you will figure out the teachings which escape you presently.

Africans lived and ruled in Greece. Athens was founded by the Egyptian King Sensworst. Egyptians and Sudanese colonized Greek until the rise of the Persians. We left genes therein.

Black Africans not only colonized and ruled the Greeks, we taught the Greeks the entirety of all they knew. Because until the Greeks entered Egypt following their conquest of Persia, Greece was a backwater section of the world.

The entire Hellenic culture is Egyptian culture plagiarized by the Greeks!

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 19, 2008 What lies you keep posting, Jahdey. Its very comical that there are people like you out there who believe the garbage ideology you keep yapping about. Real Greeks never claimed being Africans, in fact real Greeks both in ancient and modern times very clearly state they are of European Caucasian origins both in their writings, statues and artifacts. Only Afrocentric who are envious of Greek civilization try to turn Greeks into something that they are not. Black Africans didn’t teach anything to Greeks nor did black Africans ever colonize Greece as you so falsely like to claim given no historical records or evidence has ever been discovered of this except in the wishful minds of Afrocentric. There is no black African genetic link found between you black Africans and white Greeks either in modern times or ancient. Stop living in a delusional bubble of misconceptions and lies. HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks, in fact Greeks who carry the thalassaemia don’t carry any of the genetic Haplogroups found in black Africans, which blows your false theory of some phantom “black genetic African” origins of people with thalassaemia to bits. Its pretty comical hearing you try to turn a whole population that not once showed any physical or genetic signs of being black Africans, in fact if we study both ancient and modern Greeks they very clearly show the physical types of White Caucasian not black Africans, are trying to turn them into ‘black’. So what happened to your phantom ‘black Greeks’? Why to ancient Greeks call black Africans “Ethiopians” = Greek for ‘burned faces’ but themselves “European Hellenes” = Caucasians. Nope the Greeks never called themselves as ‘“Ethiopians” =burned or black’ like they did with black Africans based on physical looks. What happened? Did they get rid off all the ‘black Greeks’? LOL!! I’ve been to Greece, all the blacks that I have seen in that country I can count on one hand and most of those are of foreign extraction. What a bunch of crock.

Mohammad said
on February 20, 2008 Good job Dave! Good job, pin that fool in a corner and make sure he never speaks again. The guy also tried making false accusations of Arabs being originally black, Celts being originall black, Romans having blackhood, etc. Its very stupid, and in fact he even offered me a link to a black-myth theory related to the Chinese after I joked about it. It turns out my joke was true, that there are in fact a bunch of afrocentrics who think theyve influenced the Chinese dynasties. Its pathetic, really pathetic.

Jahdey said
on February 20, 2008 Devile Dave replied:

Stop living in a delusional bubble of misconceptions and lies. HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks,

Scientisits Answer with citations:

It has been conclusively demonstrated that HbS in Greece is mostly haplotype #19 (the one that originated in Benin, Nigeria West Africa). See, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P.; The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Unit for Prenatal Diagnosis, Laikon Hospital, Athens, Greece.

Jahdey responds: Devile, can you cite one genetic paper that disproves the above citations? If you cannot then you have been thrashed like the pink thrash you are, and will always be.

Jahdey

Jahdey said
on February 20, 2008 Muha-madder whines: he even offered me a link to a black-myth theory related to the Chinese after I joked about it. It turns out my joke was true

Jahdey responds: We don’t joke on Rastalivewire Muha-madder Islamo-Facist. This is real history which your white caucasian masters themselves agree with.

Go figure. But keep reading, soon your ancient Jecanite jealousy of Black Arabs will finally explode into fatal apoplexy.

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 20, 2008 Mohammad, people like Jahdey want to turn every single civilization both ancient and modern into some “African black” myth for some reason. I guess stealing other peoples identity and history gives them some kind of ‘belonging’, who knows. Its quite pathetic if you ask me. They only like to spread lies and misinformation to further their own agendas. They give no historical or scientific evidence to back up their baseless ideologies and what they do provide is useless distorted views. Case in point is Jahdey trying to claim that HBs haplogroup #19 is found in Greece because of his mythical “Greeks are of black African origins” fallacy. What he doesn’t point out or maybe he doesn’t know is the HBs haplogroup #19 is found in less then 1% of Greeks and the blood groups of Greeks who have the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait in Greece and most other Mediterranean regions have virtually no Haplogroups that are ‘a typical’ with that of black African Hg markers. Sickle cell anemia is not a black disease, nor did it originate in West Africa. The gene responsible for sickle cell provides protection against malaria, so it’s present wherever we find malaria—Mediterranean countries, Southern Asia, Latin America, West Africa, and the Middle East. We only think of it as a black disease because the slaves who worked the cotton fields of America came from West Africa. If they’d come from Yemen or Japan, then we’d have seen it as a Yemeni or Japanese disease. Sickle cell is the result of malaria, not a genetic racial link to Africa as some falsely believe. Malaria has been around longer than humans have and has always acted on human populations. Therefore, since our beginning, malaria has been ’selecting for’ the sickle cell gene, reproduce and pass on the sickle cell gene to sickle cell carriers. This explains why, despite our racial assumptions about sickle cell, the disease is for example rare in South Africa but prevalent in the Mediterranean, Southern Asia, Latin America and the Middle East.. Sickle cell does not follow some phantom ancient ‘genetic black African’ origin. Sickle cell follows MALARIA and at one point those areas mentioned were hot beds of sub tropical malaria infested regions. In areas that are now or once were hot and humid – ideal breeding grounds for malaria carrying mosquitoes), sickle cell is prevalent. As for that study conducted by Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P, he neglects to mention and leaves out the fact that they state very clearly and I quote: “Comparison of the above results with similar surveys in other parts of the world and consideration of various historical events suggest that the beta S mutation was introduced into Greece OVER THE LAST FEW CENTURIES by the Saracen raids and/or by settlements of North African slaves brought in by the Arabs, Franks, Venetians, or Ottoman Turks, who have occupied the country over the last few centuries.” – PMID: 1687685 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]. They actually debunks his claim that “Greeks were/are originally blacks” theory given this states clearly the Hemoglobin Haplotype 19 virus is a recent introduction into the country not ancient. “Black African Arabs, Celts, Romans and Chinese”?!?!?! OMG, just when I think I’ve heard all the craziness there is to hear. LoL! Anyone with an education knows that not one of those group of people are of African black origins. How sad that such people distort the truth and try to steal other peoples identity and history.

Jahdey said
on February 20, 2008 Feb 19 6:33 pm Dave crows:

For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated:

Feb 19th 6:45 pm Dave continues:

Finally the mere fact that you are trying to attribute such a heterogeneity disease as sickle cell as “ones place of ancestral origins” is astonishing. Sickle cell is contributed to malaria not some phantom African ancestry link as you so falsely stated.

Dave continues on Feb 20th 7:45 am:

…..What he doesn’t point out or maybe he doesn’t know is the HBs haplogroup #19 is found in less then 1% of Greeks and the blood groups of Greeks who have the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait in Greece and most other Mediterranean regions have virtually no Haplogroups that are ‘a typical’ with that of black African Hg markers. Sickle cell anemia is not a black disease, nor did it originate in West Africa.

Dave continues Feb 20th 7:45 am:

…historical events suggest that the beta S mutation was introduced into Greece OVER THE LAST FEW CENTURIES by the Saracen raids and/or by settlements of North African slaves brought in by the Arabs, Franks, Venetians, or Ottoman Turks, who have occupied the country over the last few centuries.” –

Jahdey Speaks:

I understand your confusion Dave. You will see how in the last two days you have shifted your goal post from your loud crows that Greeks are not mixed with west African blood line to qualifying that “only 1 percent of Greeks have it anyway…”

Your latest goal post shift is now that “well the only African blood line in Greece came when African slaves were brought into Greece in the last 500 years…”

Your inconsistency is a comedy of errors.

Point me to any textual authority, any history book in the western world, that tells you that hundreds of thousands of Black African slaves were brought to Greece anywhere in the last 500 years.

If you cannot do this then you are an ignorant half baked wanna be intellectual. As such you should bow and kiss my feet.

If you can produce one peer reviewed paper or history text book that makes such a claim, then I will kiss your feet.

There will not be any such text available because no such event took place.

Therefore using proper interpretative faculty one may accept Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, genetic analysis because that is their specialization.

But when it comes to their intrepretation of historical accounts, you must be more discerning.

Since there the only Mediterranean sea slave trade in the last 500 years involved Jecanite Arabs (Muha-madder’s people) and Greek and Serbian women, to imply the “negro slave theory” to explain clear evidence of Black Africa’s genetic footprints in Greece is not only patent falsehood, it is racist. It is cultural appropriation, it is robbery!

According to Dr. Graham Sergeant, Sickle cell Genes originated in Africa and from there it migrated into the Greek Islands.

Ancient Egyptians also had the Haplotype 19 Hbs gene mutation from Nigeria West Africa. The Greeks (Herodotus, History) narrated to us that they began as an Egyptian colony.

Prof. Snowden wrote two magun opus on the African presence in ancient Greece and Rome. You need to go read it. As well as Prof. Martin Bernal’s Black Athena, as well as David MacRitichie’s work on Ancient and Modern Britons.

Scientists Reiterate:

The Benin haplotype (which originates from Nigeria, West Africa) accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily Northern Greece, Southern Turkey, and South West Saudi Arabia, suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa. The Asian haplotype is rarely encountered outside its geographic origin because there have been few large population movements and Indian emigrants have been predominantly from non HbS containing populations. Per:Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities For Understanding Its DiversityRSITY: http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html

Read and expand your mind.

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 20, 2008 Jahdey misinformation 1:
“I understand your confusion Dave. You will see how in the last two days you have shifted your goal post from your loud crows that Greeks are not mixed with west African blood line to qualifying that “only 1 percent of Greeks have it anyway…” ”

Davids correction 1:
The one who is confused here, Jahdey, is you. For one go back and read again what I wrote: no where did I state that Greeks have “1% West African blood”. Once again, you are putting your own thoughts into what other peoples are saying. I said:

“What he doesn’t point out or maybe he doesn’t know is the HBs haplogroup #19 is found in less then 1% of Greeks and the blood groups of Greeks who have the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait in Greece and most other Mediterranean regions have virtually no Haplogroups that are ‘a typical’ with that of black African Hg markers.”

Let me put it in simpler terms: sickle cell disorder is not an African origin disease as you so falsely stated. In Greece the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in NORTHERN Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS. In other words the Greeks who have the disorder genetically show no connection to West nor East Black Africans.

Jahdey misinformation 2:
“Your latest goal post shift is now that “well the only African blood line in Greece came when African slaves were brought into Greece in the last 500 years…””
Your inconsistency is a comedy of errors.”

Davids correction 2:
Nope, wrong again you are again, Jahdey, that is not my theory, that is what the study that YOU provided theorizes. If anyone has been posting inconsistencies and errors around here, its you, as shown by the fact that the study YOU provided disproves your “Greeks were/are originally blacks” bunch of crock.

Jahdey misinformation 3:
“Point me to any textual authority, any history book in the western world, that tells you that hundreds of thousands of Black African slaves were brought to Greece anywhere in the last 500 years.”

Davids correction 3:
There is no evidence of ANY large scale of black Africans being in the Greek region to change the genetic phenotypes of the Greek population which is why your ridiculous theory that Greeks are black Africans is beyond belief. Greeks since ancient times have described how different they were from black Africans of whom the Greeks description of black Africans was ‘burned/black faces’. They never described themselves as such nor did they depict themselves in any such way in their art.

Jahdey misinformation 4:
“Therefore using proper interpretative faculty one may accept Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, genetic analysis because that is their specialization.”

Davids correction 4:
Unfortunately for you, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, genetic analysis clearly contradict your claim that Greeks are ‘black Africans’: “the beta S mutation was introduced into Greece OVER THE LAST FEW CENTURIES by the Saracen raids and/or by settlements of North African slaves brought in by the Arabs, Franks, Venetians, or Ottoman Turks, who have occupied the country over the last few centuries.” – PMID: 1687685 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]. They actually debunks your fallacy claim that “Greeks since ancient times were/are originally blacks”, instead they theories its a recent introduction into a small % of Greeks. What they can’t figure out is why the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS. The answer for knuckle heads out there has already been given by many scientists regarding: sickle cell is not an African origins decease, its origins is MALARIA.

Jahdey misinformation 5:
“Since there the only Mediterranean sea slave trade in the last 500 years involved Jecanite Arabs (Muha-madder’s people) and Greek and Serbian women, to imply the “negro slave theory” to explain clear evidence of Black Africa’s genetic footprints in Greece is not only patent falsehood, it is racist. It is cultural appropriation, it is robbery!”

Davids correction 5:
That is what the study that YOU PROVIDED clearly states, a recent migration through slave trades and only to a small % of the population. What you seem to miss is that their theory and your false belief are both contradicted by the fact that the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS. Meaning sickle cell is not the cause of some phantom ‘black african genetic footprint’ because the individuals who have it have ZERO black african genes.

Jahdey misinformation 6:
“According to Dr. Graham Sergeant, Sickle cell Genes originated in Africa and from there it migrated into the Greek Islands.”

Davids correction 6:
According to Dr. Graham Sergeant who never states that sickle cell ‘originated in Africa and migrated to the Greek Island’ from there, clearly says sickle cell is a recent occurrence that has occurred independently in several different populations. He very clearly says that its MALARIA, not some phantom “black African” gene, for the origins of sickle cell:

” The most likely interpretation is that the sickle cell mutation is a relatively recent occurrence that has occurred independently in several different populations. Falciparum malaria then acted as a selective factor, increasing the prevalence of the gene because people inheriting the sickle cell gene from one parent and a gene for normal adult hemoglobin from the other parent (sickle cell trait) were less likely to die from malaria and so more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY. SC disease is confined to populations of West African ancestry. Sickle cell-βο thalassemia occurs in all populations and accounts for nearly half the sickle cell disease.” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

Jahdey misinformation 7:
“The Greeks (Herodotus, History) narrated to us that they began as an Egyptian colony.

Davids correction 7:
More misinformation, Herodotus definitely never states the Greeks were Egyptian. Herodotus and every other ancient sources, including the Egyptians themselves, very clearly state the differences between black Africans, Egyptians, Romans and Greeks.

Jahdey misinformation 8:
“Prof. Snowden wrote two magun opus on the African presence in ancient Greece and Rome. You need to go read it. As well as Prof. Martin Bernal’s Black Athena, as well as David MacRitichie’s work on Ancient and Modern Britons.”

Davids correction 8:
Three individuals with zero credibility on academic knowledge of ancient civilizations like Greece and Rome:

Afrocentric like Snowden is the reason such misconceptions about the worlds ancient civilizations exist today. Their fallacies are being fed to ignorant individuals around the world.

Bernal is hardly an authority on ancient Greece given he is not even a scholar on the subject matter. Most of his theories are not based on actual historical and scientific evidence, just fictional theories that have been proven to be wrong by many Classical scholars around the world.

David MacRitchie, the Scottish FOLKLORIST, once again hardly a relable source on ancient civilizations…but then again fictional folklore seems to be the bases of most Afrocentic ideology so it doesn’t surprise me that someone who believes in such fallacies would pick a fictional folklorist as their source.

“Scientists Reiterate”

“The most likely interpretation is that the sickle cell mutation is a relatively recent occurrence that has occurred independently in several different populations. Falciparum malaria then acted as a selective factor, increasing the prevalence of the gene because people inheriting the sickle cell gene from one parent and a gene for normal adult hemoglobin from the other parent (sickle cell trait) were less likely to die from malaria and so more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY.

Greece: The relative prevalences of the different genotypes of sickle cell disease in Greece DIFFER from that in West African populations because of high frequency and variety of β thalassemia genes.

The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED factors recognized to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities For Understanding Its DiversityRSITY

http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html

Jahdey said
on February 20, 2008 Dave whines on February 19, 2006 at 10:28 pm see above

There is no black African genetic link found between you black Africans and white Greeks either in modern times or ancient.

Stop living in a delusional bubble of misconceptions and lies. HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks,

Scientisits Answer with citations:

It has been conclusively demonstrated that HbS in Greece is mostly haplotype #19 (the one that originated in Benin, Nigeria West Africa). See, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P.; The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Unit for Prenatal Diagnosis, Laikon Hospital, Athens, Greece.

Dave recants upon being confronted with scientific evidence but continues to fib:

Jahdey trying to claim that HBs haplogroup #19 is found in Greece because of his mythical “Greeks are of black African origins” fallacy. What he doesn’t point out or maybe he doesn’t know is the HBs haplogroup #19 is found in less then 1% of Greeks

(This is from a guy who did not know as of February 19, 2006 10:28 pm that Greeks carry Haplotype 19 from Nigeria West Africa…this is pitiful)

Dave continues to rant:

Sickle cell anemia is not a black disease, nor did it originate in West Africa.

Scientists respond:

The origin of the mutation that led to the sickle cell gene was initially thought to be in the Arabian peninsula, spreading to Asia and Africa. It is now known, from evaluation of chromosome structures, that there have been at least four independent mutational events, three in Africa and a fourth in either Saudi Arabia or central India. See
Desai, D. V.; Hiren Dhanani (2004). “Sickle Cell Disease: History And Origin”. The Internet Journal of Haematology 1 (2). ISSN 1540-2649.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease

Dave resorts to outright lies now:

The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED factors recognized to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities For Understanding Its DiversityRSITY

Jahdey responds:

Graham never said this no where in his article. Please post the entire paper by Graham and higlight the section where this statement is contained in the article. Thank you.

Dave lies outrightly again, signal of academic befuddlement:

According to Dr. Graham Sergeant who never states that sickle cell ‘originated in Africa and migrated to the Greek Island’ from there, clearly says sickle cell is a recent occurrence that has occurred independently in several different populations.

Dr Graham speaks (he is from Jamaica so he knows sickle cell…):

According to Dr. Graham Segearnt:

“The Senegal haplotype occurs on the Atlantic coast of West Africa, the Benin haplotype in central West Africa, especially Ghana, Nigeria, and Côte d’Ivoire, and the Bantu or Central African Republic haplotype in Zaire, the Central African Republic, Angola and Kenya…”

“From these original foci of the HbS mutation, the gene spread along trading routes to North Africa and the Mediterranean, was transported in large populations to North and South America and the Caribbean”

“The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily, Northern Greece, Southern Turkey … suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa.

Dr Graham’s article is posted at the end of this reply. Please read.

See also for more reading:

Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype (which can be also termed as Nigerian haplotype because Benin is a region in Nigeria): implications for gene flow. Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41.

Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas Ph. The origin of the sickle cell mutation in Greece: evidence from Hbs globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Hemoglobins 1991;15:459-67.

Jahdey Speaks:

Just 24 hours ago you had absolutely no clue of the nature or the origin of Haplotype 19 HBS, for you declared with such grandstanding that Greeks had no Haplotype 19. Today you are an expert. That is how quacks are unmasked.

You did not even know Haplotype 19 existed in Greeks yesterday. After having educated you, you are now pontificating on an issue you have had only 48 hours familiarity. Pathetic.

Is this just to score argument points, or manifestation of a pathological phobia for all things West African? The most piognant aspect of your rambling is that you are neither Greek nor African, neither a scholar nor a geneticist…yet you posture for posterity to puzzle over you complete vacuity.

Now read Dr G. Segearnt’s work in his own words:

THE GEOGRAPHY OF SICKLE CELL DISEASE:
OPPORTUNITIES FOR UNDERSTANDING ITS DIVERSITY

Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP

The sickle cell gene is now known to be widespread, reaching its highest incidence in equatorial Africa, but occurring also in parts of Sicily and Southern Italy, Northern Greece, Southern Turkey, the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, especially the Eastern Province, and much of Central India (Figure 1). This distribution is determined by the occurrence of the sickle cell mutation and its selection by falciparum malaria.

Studies of the structure of DNA surrounding the beta globin locus reveal that the sickle cell gene is associated with several DNA structures probably representing different ancestral populations. The most likely interpretation is that the sickle cell mutation is a relatively recent occurrence that has occurred independently in several different populations. Falciparum malaria then acted as a selective factor, increasing the prevalence of the gene because people inheriting the sickle cell gene from one parent and a gene for normal adult hemoglobin from the other parent (sickle cell trait) were less likely to die from malaria and so more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. The factor in common to the distribution of the sickle cell gene is therefore malaria and not African ancestry.

The different DNA structures associated with the sickle cell gene are identified by a pattern of restriction enzyme sites, the so-called  globin haplotypes,1-3 which are assumed to represent independent occurrences of the sickle cell mutation and are named after the places where first described (Figure 2).

The Senegal haplotype occurs on the Atlantic coast of West Africa, the Benin haplotype in central West Africa, especially Ghana, Nigeria, and Côte d’Ivoire, and the Bantu or Central African Republic haplotype in Zaire, the Central African Republic, Angola and Kenya.5 The HbS gene in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia6,7 and in Central India8 is associated with a different DNA structure not encountered in Africa and so almost certainly a fourth independent occurrence of the sickle cell mutation. It is currently uncertain whether the mutation arose in Arabia and spread to India or vice versa or possibly two independent occurrences in peoples of similar ancestral DNA structures. This fourth pattern is generally called the Asian haplotype.

From these original foci of the HbS mutation, the gene spread along trading routes to North Africa and the Mediterranean, was transported in large populations to North and South America and the Caribbean during the slave trade, and latterly has spread to Northern Europe by immigration from the Caribbean, directly from Africa to the United Kingdom, France, Belgium, and Holland, and from Turkey to Germany.
The relative prevalence of these haplotypes in the Americas reflects the different origins of their African peoples, approximately 70% of HbS associated chromosomes having the Benin haplotype, 10% Senegal and 10% Bantu. Haplotype frequencies in Jamaica are similar to the USA but the Bantu haplotype accounts for the majority of HbS associated chromosomes in Brazil.9

The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa. The Asian haplotype is rarely encountered outside its geographic origin because there have been few large population movements and Indian emigrants have been predominantly from non HbS containing populations. However, it is of interest that the Asian haplotype was first described among descendants of Indian indentured laborers in Jamaica.12 The disease now occurs against diverse genetic and environmental backgrounds, which provide experimental models for investigating the mechanisms of the clinical and hematological variability of the disease.

………………………………………………………………………

Dave said
on February 20, 2008 More distorted material from Jahdey:
“It has been conclusively demonstrated that HbS in Greece is mostly haplotype #19 (the one that originated in Benin, Nigeria West Africa). See, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P.; The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Unit for Prenatal Diagnosis, Laikon Hospital, Athens, Greece.”

David provides correct information once again:
“the beta S mutation was introduced into Greece OVER THE LAST FEW CENTURIES by the Saracen raids and/or by settlements of North African slaves brought in by the Arabs, Franks, Venetians, or Ottoman Turks, who have occupied the country over the last few centuries.” – PMID: 1687685 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]- Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P. They actually debunk your fallacy that “Greeks since ancient times were/are originally blacks”, instead they theorize of a recent introduction into a small % of Greeks. What they can’t figure out is why the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS. The answer for knuckle heads out there has already been given by many scientists: sickle cell is not an African origins decease, its origins is MALARIA.

More fallacies from Jahdey when scientific evidence proves he is wrong:
“This is from a guy who did not know as of February 19, 2006 10:28 pm that Greeks carry Haplotype 19 from Nigeria West Africa…this is pitiful”

David provides once more correct information:
Greeks do not carry any Haplotype 19 from “Nigeria West Africa”. What is pitiful is you continuing to try to pass of lies as ‘facts’ when all scientific evidence, even the ones YOU provided discredit your views. My original reply to you was and still stands, the HBS haplogroup 19 found in black Africans is not a phantom black African genetic link that you are falsely claiming: “HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks, in fact Greeks who carry the thalassaemia don’t carry any of the genetic Haplogroups found in black Africans, which blows your false theory of some phantom “black genetic African” origins of people with thalassaemia to bits.”

Scientists like Pilar N. Ossorio, Ph.D., J.D state “sickle cell is not a Black disease” backing up David’s claims that sickle cell origin is MALARIA not “black Africans” once again:
“One comment I often hear is, “well, if there is no genetic basis to race than why do Black people have sickle cell disease while people of other races do not?” Actually, people of any race can have sickle cell disease. Being of a particular race does not cause the disease; having certain versions (alleles) of the hemoglobin gene causes the disease. Sickle cell disease is what we call a recessive trait—to manifest the disease a person must inherit the sickle cell allele of the hemoglobin gene from both her/his mother and father; a person must have two copies of sickle-cell hemoglobin or she will not have the disease. A person with only one sickle cell allele is called a carrier, she/he does not have the disease but her/his child could have the disease if the other parent is also a carrier. Scientists believe that sickle cell alleles help people resist the parasite that causes malaria; if a person is a carrier she or he will not get as sick from malaria as a person who is not a carrier. Thus, where malaria was or is prevalent persons who are sickle-cell carriers are more likely to survive and have children. In regions of the world where there is or was lots of malaria, there will be more sickle-cell carriers. Parts of Africa have high rates of malaria, as do parts of the middle east, parts of Asia, and parts of South East Asia. Some parts of Africa—the south and the Northwest, have little or no malaria. Black people whose ancestors are from Southern Africa or Northwest Africa are no more likely to be sickle-cell carriers than are people from Northern Europe. In the US, our medical community and our popular culture has associated sickle cell with “black race” because many African Americans have ancestors who came from regions of Central Africa where malaria was prevalent. Historically, there have been more African Americans in the US than people from other parts of the world where sickle cell is common. However, in the Southwestern and Western US physicians are beginning to think of sickle cell disease as a “Latino disease” because many Latinos have ancestors from parts of the world where sickle cell is prevalent. So, sickle cell is NOT a Black disease, but until recently we have been more aware of the disease in African Americans. With respect to hemoglobin genes, African Americans are more likely to have a sickle-cell version than are American of most European ancestries. However, this does not mean that African Americans or more like each other when we look at other genes. There was a specific historical reason why people with ancestry in certain parts of Africa tend to have sickle-cell alleles; but malaria only had an effect on that one part of the human genome, not on all of it. In general, people of all races have similar genes, and are not more genetically like a person “of the same race” than they are to genetically like people from “a different race.” Effects such as that exerted by malaria generally have not influenced the ancestors of all Black people, only ancestors of a portion of that race. Likewise, other effects have caused genetic similarities in a portion of European-descended people. For instance, it seems that alleles causing the disease hemochromatosis are more common among Scandinavian people than among other people. This does not mean that all White people are genetically similar to each other and different from people of other races. It just means that for this one gene, a portion of White people’s ancestors may have experienced events that led to one genetic commonality among them. It is much more difficult to measure talents or capabilities. These are complex characteristics with complex causes and manifestations. For a few diseases, we can trace the cause largely to a single gene. For complex diseases and for characteristics such a musical and athletic ability we cannot trace the causes to single genes.”

Jahdey continues to leave out information to further his personal agenda:
“The origin of the mutation that led to the sickle cell gene was initially thought to be in the Arabian peninsula, spreading to Asia and Africa. It is now known, from evaluation of chromosome structures, that there have been at least four independent mutational events, three in Africa and a fourth in either Saudi Arabia or central India.” See Desai, D. V.; Hiren Dhanani (2004). “Sickle Cell Disease: History And Origin”. The Internet Journal of Haematology 1 (2). ISSN 1540-2649.

David provides more of the study by Desai, D. V.; Hiren Dhanani (2004). “Sickle Cell Disease: History And Origin”. The Internet Journal of Haematology 1 (2). ISSN 1540-2649 which backs up the claim sickle cell arose in separate geographic locations:
“The existence of haplotypes specific to certain regions of the world suggests that the mutant beta globin gene arose separately in these locations. 21 All of the areas in question have been or are now endemic locations of malarial infestation. This observation is consistent with the idea that the high incidence of sickle mutation in these areas is derived from natural selection. 22″

Jahdey own sources prove his wrong and yet he continues to resorts to outright lies:
“Graham never said this no where in his article. Please post the entire paper by Graham and higlight the section where this statement is contained in the article. Thank you.”

David responds by quoting the same Scientist Jahdey sourced in respond to Jahdey’s lies:
Oh yes Graham did state exactly what I wrote, if you read THE WHOLE RESEARCH PAPER you would have seen this. That paragraph is taken STRAIGHT from Graham’s research. If you read the whole thing you would have known he states exactly what I wrote. But then again you posted a link to the article that doesn’t even work to hide the fact that you are lying, so its no surprise by your reaction when confronted with the truth you would throw out more unfounded accusations. Your comment proves to me that you don’t read what you post and only post selective parts of articles that you falsely believe further your personal agenda. Found in page 7 under the section of the article titled: “Geographic Variation of Sickle Cell Disease” straight from Graham’s own work discrediting you once again:

“The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED factors recognized to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease

Jahdey lies outrightly again:
“The Senegal haplotype occurs on the Atlantic coast of West Africa, the Benin haplotype in central West Africa, especially Ghana, Nigeria, and Côte d’Ivoire, and the Bantu or Central African Republic haplotype in Zaire, the Central African Republic, Angola and Kenya…”

David provides the whole paragraph unlike Jahdey who only give distorted bits and pieces. By the way notice how Segearnt claims sickle cell disorder are named after the places first DESCRIBED, not places of origins. Goes back to what I said before: “Sickle cell anemia is not a black disease. The gene responsible for sickle cell provides protection against malaria, so it’s present wherever we find malaria—Mediterranean region, Southern Asia, Latin America, Africa, and the Middle East. We only think of it as a black disease because the slaves who worked the cotton fields of America came from West Africa. If they’d come from Yemen or Japan, then we’d have seen it as a Yemeni or Japanese disease.”

“The different DNA structures associated with the sickle cell gene are identified by a pattern of restriction enzyme sites, the so-called β globin haplotypes,1-3 which are assumed to represent independent occurrences of the sickle cell mutation and are named after the places where first described (Figure 2). [The section that Jahdey only provided BEGINS here]The Senegal haplotype occurs on the Atlantic coast of West Africa, the Benin haplotype in central West Africa, especially Ghana, Nigeria, and Côte d’Ivoire, and the Bantu or Central African Republic haplotype in Zaire, the Central African Republic, Angola and Kenya.5 [The section that Jahdey only provided ENDS here] The HbS gene in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia6,7 and in Central India8 is associated with a different DNA structure not encountered in Africa and so almost certainly a fourth independent occurrence of the sickle cell mutation. It is currently uncertain whether the mutation arose in Arabia and spread to India or vice versa or possibly two independent occurrences in peoples of similar ancestral DNA structures. This fourth pattern is generally called the Asian haplotype.”

More Jahdey distorted lies:
“From these original foci of the HbS mutation, the gene spread along trading routes to North Africa and the Mediterranean, was transported in large populations to North and South America and the Caribbean.

The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily, Northern Greece, Southern Turkey … suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa.”

David provides corrections again: If you actually read Segearnt article and not any old misinformation found on dubious online sites you would have known that he provides sources for Sicily, NORTHERN Greece(so what happended, it leeped frogged the rest of Greece? – nope goes back to what I said about Northern Greece & the rest of these regions being a breathing ground for malaria due to WWI, WWII, Civil War), Southern Turkey and South West Saudi Arabia. All the sources Segearnt uses for the countries mentioned claim recent introductions into small % of their populations based upon raids and/or by settlements and African slaves, not as Jahdey so falsely is claiming some phantom ‘ancient black african link’. Jahdey doesn’t even provide the correct sentence that includes the numeric sources for these countries found in the official study but I will:

“The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa..”

Sicily,#4 = source Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41. – implications for gene flow in recent times through North Africa.
Southern Turkey,#11 = source Aluoch JR, Kilinç Y, Aksoy M, et al. Sickle cell anaemia among Eti-Turks: haematological, clinical and genetic observations. Br J Haematol 1986;64:45-55.

South West Saudi Arabia,#6, = source El-Hazmi MAF. Beta globin gene haplotypes in the Saudi sickle cell anemia patients. Human Heredity 1990;40:177-86.
South West Saudi Arabia,#7, = source Padmos MA, Roberts GT, Sackey K, et al. Two different forms of homozygous sickle cell disease occur in Saudi Arabia. Br J Haematology 1991;79:93-8.

Northern Greece, #10 = source Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas Ph. The origin of the sickle cell mutation in Greece: evidence from βs globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Hemoglobins 1991;15:459-67. – well look at here, Segearnt is using as his source the same study that clearly states “Comparison of the above results with similar surveys in other parts of the world and consideration of various historical events suggest that the beta S mutation was introduced into Greece OVER THE LAST FEW CENTURIES by the Saracen raids and/or by settlements of North African slaves brought in by the Arabs, Franks, Venetians, or Ottoman Turks, who have occupied the country over the last few centuries.” meaning his supports the their theory that sickle cell in certain Greeks is a recent introduction to the country through raids, settlements and slaves from North Africa, not ancient as Jahdey is so falsely claiming. They still can’t explain why the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in NORTHERN Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS. In other words the Greeks who have the disorder genetically show no connection to West nor East Black Africans. Which is WHY scientists like Segearnt states very clearly that sickle cell is due to MALARIA and not some phantom “African origins” fallacy:

“The most likely interpretation is that the sickle cell mutation is a relatively recent occurrence that has occurred independently in several different populations. Falciparum malaria then acted as a selective factor, increasing the prevalence of the gene because people inheriting the sickle cell gene from one parent and a gene for normal adult hemoglobin from the other parent (sickle cell trait) were less likely to die from malaria and so more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY. SC disease is confined to populations of West African ancestry. Sickle cell-βο thalassemia occurs in all populations and accounts for nearly half the sickle cell disease.” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

Jahdey’s useless dribble & his distorted cut/paste work once again:
“Now read Dr G. Segearnt’s work in his own words:”

David’s response:
1) You did not provide Dr. G. Segearnt’s entire research paper which is TEN PAGES that includes graphs, sources as well as a lot more information that you deliberately left out because THAT information, as I have stated numerious times, discredits your ideology. I’ve never met anyone like you, who lies at will to hide the truth from everyone.

2) Your one to try and claim knowledge on any such material given you don’t even read the FULL articles that you keep cutting and pasting certain parts only, because if you did read THE WHOLE ARTICLES and not selected few you would have seen how ridiculous it is to try and use they as your based for your argument given much they debunk your opinions and views.

Jahdey said
on February 20, 2008 Dave whines on February 19, 2006 at 10:28 pm see above

There is no black African genetic link found between you black Africans and white Greeks either in modern times or ancient.
Stop living in a delusional bubble of misconceptions and lies. HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks,

February 20th, 2008 at 6:04 pm Dave eats his own vomit:

David provides corrections again:

If you actually read Segearnt article and not any old misinformation found on dubious online sites you would have known that he provides sources for Sicily, NORTHERN Greece(so what happended, it leeped frogged the rest of Greece? – …….

Jahdey doesn’t even provide the correct sentence that includes the numeric sources for these countries found in the official study but I will:

“The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa..”
Sicily,#4 = source Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41. – implications for gene flow in recent times through North Africa.

Southern Turkey,#11 = source Aluoch JR, Kilinç Y, Aksoy M, et al. Sickle cell anaemia among Eti-Turks: haematological, clinical and genetic observations. Br J Haematol 1986;64:45-55.

Jahdey Speaks:

Smart boy, smart boy you are learning fast. Now your confusion is clarified. From the horse’s mouth a recantation of a lie is admitted shamefacedly. I quote your own words:

Jahdey doesn’t even provide the correct sentence that includes the numeric sources for these countries found in the official study but I will:

“The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa..”

Now you know. Case done!!!

Second issue, you now want to discuss the age of the introduction of the west African, Benin Nigeria originated HBS haplotype 19 into Norther Greece? Is my assumption correct? Nomore queries about blood relationship…just confusion on the age of that relationship? Please confirm.

Thanks

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 20, 2008 Jahdey continues to lie and distort the truth like all ignoramus when the facts contradict their fallacies.

Your theory of some supposed “black African genes” in Greeks have been proven to be wrong both in historical and scientific evidence. Face the facts.

“Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY.

The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

The study by Serjeant and Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, clearly contradict your dubious claims that Greeks are ‘Original West Africans Of Ancient Greece’(as you have falsely claimed many times) given they theorize its a recent migration found in a small % of the population. Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, falsely think of it as a “black disease” because the people who were first diagnosed with it came from West Africa. If they’d come from Siberia or Japan, then they’d have saying its a Siberian or Japanese disease. This is why Serjeant states in his study: “THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY.” Because its not a ‘black African’ genetic marker.

Science contradicts both them and your false claim. Sickle cell disorder is not an African origin disease as you so falsely claim. In Greece the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in NORTHERN Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS. Period. The answer for this has been provided already by many scientists: sickle cell is not an African origins decease, its origins is MALARIA

Jahdey said
on February 20, 2008 Dave keeps lieing:

The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

Jahdey speaks: SO whatz ur point?

Hear your own echo again

February 20th, 2006 6:04 pm David admits in written record:

Jahdey doesn’t even provide the correct sentence that includes the numeric sources for these countries found in the official study but I will:

“The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa..” See above.

Are you recanting again?

Case done!!

Dave said
on February 20, 2008 Jahdey continues to lie and distort the truth:

“Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY.

The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

Science contradicts both them and your false claim. Sickle cell disorder is not an African origin disease as you so falsely claim. In Greece the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in NORTHERN Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS. Period. The answer for this has been provided already by many scientists: sickle cell is not an African origins decease, its origins is MALARIA

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 Dave I quote your own words for you:

Dave whines:
February 19, 2006 at 10:28 pm (see above)

There is no black African genetic link found between you black Africans and white Greeks either in modern times or ancient….

Stop living in a delusional bubble of misconceptions and lies. HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks,

Dave eats his own vomit:
February 20th, 2008 at 6:04 pm (See above)

“David provides corrections again:

If you actually read Segearnt article and not any old misinformation found on dubious online sites you would have known that he provides sources for Sicily, NORTHERN Greece(so what happended, it leeped frogged the rest of Greece? – …….

Jahdey doesn’t even provide the correct sentence that includes the numeric sources for these countries found in the official study but I will:

“The BENIN HAPLOTYPE accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 NORTHERN GREECE,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that THESE GENES had their ORIGIN IN WEST AFRICA…”

CASE DONE!!!

JAHDEY SPEAKS: Now do you want me to also list other shared genes between Greeks, Nigerians Kenyans, Somalis, and Ethiopians?

Y-Haplogroup: E3A, E3B, A, K2, J2, DE, etc.

Autosomnal genes: G6PD, Thalassemia alpha, Thalassemia beta, HBS Haplotype 19 aka the Nigerian Haplotype.

Thanks for visiting Rastalivewire.

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 21, 2008 More lies and misinformation by Jahdey.

Corrections by David:

For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated:

Haplogroup DE is found in very small % in male populations of Nigeria which proves to be that of a much LATER MUTATION introduced INTO that African regions’ population not from it as you so falsely state. The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.

As far as E3B goes, this Hg can be found through out most of Europe and it is best that one states clearly which sub-group of the E3B (E-M78a – which is not found in black africans but it is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan areas not into it) is found in Caucasian Europeans like the Greeks. BTW, E-M78a that Greeks and other Europeans share chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe. The alpha cluster is a mutation that arose in the Balkan peninsula of Europe from an earlier marker with a Near Eastern origin, according to Cruciani et al. 2004 :

“Although E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (from northern Africa to Europe and from eastern to northern Africa, respectively), the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78α within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78a, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East. These data are hard to reconcile with the hypothesis of a uniform spread of a single Near Eastern gene pool into southeastern Europe”. – Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022. Published online 2004 March 24.

The African connection to European and Near East people is as distant as that of E-M81. And indeed, E-M78α is not found at all in the Horn of Africa. To try and claim southern Europeans, Middle Easterners, etc. as “black Africans” NOW because e3b came out of Africa, is a slippery slope to genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic. Everybody came out of Africa. There are significant and distinct stages in phenotype and genotype that lead to the different founding populations of the world since people left Africa. Ancient and modern Greeks are genetically further apart from black Africans as most other Europeans are.

“Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY.

The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

Science contradicts your false claims. Sickle cell disorder is not an African origin disease as you so falsely claim. In Greece the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in NORTHERN Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS. Period. The answer for this has been provided already by many scientists: sickle cell is not an African origins decease, its origins anc common marker is MALARIA.

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 February 21, 2008
Dave cries:
“Corrections by David:

For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated…” (Please, Provide citations.)

Then in the next breath David reveals his complete ignorance by this conflicted admission:

……“Although E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (…..from eastern to northern Africa, … and from northern Africa to Europe respectively),

… the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78α within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or POST-NEOLITHIC. ”

CASE DONE!!! From the Horse’s mouth!!!

REAL SCIENTISTS RESPOND:

(1) According to the Arniaz study, …..Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. See Arnaiz-Villena A,et.al: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27

(2) High-resolution Y-chromosome haplotyping and particular microsatellite associations reveal … an East Africa homeland for E-M78.Origin. See Ornella Semino, Chiara Magri, et al “Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area” http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15069642

(3) A recent sampling of the Greek population comprised 36 Peloponnesian samples, 5 of which were J-M172(xM12) and 17 of which were E-M78 (R.K., unpublished data). In spite of the small Peloponnesian sample size, the high E-M78 frequency (47%) observed here is consistent with that (44%) independently found in the same region (Di Giacomo et al. 2003) for the YAP chromosomes harboring microsatellite haplotypes (A. Novelletto, personal communication) typical of Hg E-M78 (Cruciani et al. 2004).

Dave said
on February 21, 2008 Lies and more selective CUT & PASTING pseudo messages from Jahdey .

David posts the WHOLE paragraph, which contradict’s Jahdey’s views on the subject matter once again:

“Although E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (from northern Africa to Europe and from eastern to northern Africa, respectively), the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78α within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78a, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East”. – Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022. Published online 2004 March 24.

Let me put it in simple terms for you since you are having a hard time understanding what is written:

“Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78a, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East.” = What this means is the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE(NEW as in A DIFFERENT ONE) THAT DISTINGUISHES(definition: being different or distinct) from the aboriginal(definition:relating to the indigenous/origin) in this case being aboriginal REGION that the E3B arose from. As stated before the E-M78α is not FOUND at all in the Horn of Africa and it is connection to East African is as distant as that of E-M81.

Davids response regarding the fallacies of the Arniaz study, the “Horse’s mouth” who is full of Horse Manure:

Arnazia research was funded by such biased mongrels as Soros and the nation of FYROMia, hardly credible or unbiased by anyone’s standards.
Arnzia’s genetical study of the Greek genes is not valid at all and has been disproved by credible geneticists from around the world.

“Three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Villena’s methodology.[16] They stated that “Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”, making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as “anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups.” No multiple-marker analysis has ever duplicated Arnaiz-Villena’s results. In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European populations based on 120 loci (view MDS plot[17]). Then, Ayub et al. 2003[18] did the same thing using 182 loci (view dendrogram[19]).” Nature; MDS plot; Ayub et al. 2003

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 David Replied Feb 21, 2008 at 9:57 am:

…E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (from northern Africa to Europe and from eastern to northern Africa, respectively)…

Jahdey Speaks:

Modest or not, ancient African E-M78β and E-M78γ are present in Greece.

This position is radically different from your over-hyped exuberance on Feb. 19, 2008 when you were so sure there were no ancient African genes in Greece. Now you are learning!

Your quotations support me, your own typewriter agrees with me. Or maybe you cannot read what you are posting.

Case done!

Now I move on to Haplogorup DE.

Dave whines:

“The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.”

Real Scientists REspond:

…DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations….” See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007).

You need to be shown pictures of the aboriginals of Arabia and Southeast Asia. They are known as the Negritos and Veddoids of Southern Arab and India, and the Andamanese of South Asia. Think the Australian aboriginals, think the New Guineans.

Dave said
on February 21, 2008 Once again one has to spell out everything since Jahdey can’t understand what he is reading. As before I will prove once more how wrong you are:

E3b1 M78-alpha clade, which originated in the Balkans and is the most common e3b in all Europe, is one of the more distantly related as far as splitting from the African lineages. The divergence time (TD) (Zhivotovsky 2001) between the African and Near East lineages; and between the Near East and European lineages thousands of a Millennium, making any lineage between Africa and Europe even further part given the new moluclar types that arose in very different evolutionary histories, which is WHY the study clearly states that the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE(NEW as in A DIFFERENT ONE) THAT DISTINGUISHES(definition: being different or distinct) from the aboriginal(definition:relating to the indigenous/origin i.e. Africa) in this case being different from aboriginal REGION(i.e. African) that the E3B arose in. If you believe there is any close lineages after over thousand millennium between the markers that arose in Africa and those that evolved through out the world, i.e. the Near East / Europe / Asia / etc., then I have a bridge to sell you in Brookline. The African connection to European, Asia, Middle East, etc. is a very distant and different genetic ones from their place of origin. To try and claim that none black African people around the world are “black Africans” NOW because Hg markers came out of Africa, is a slippery slope of genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic. Everybody came out of Africa. There are significant and distinct stages in phenotype and genotype that lead to the different founding populations of the world since people left Africa. Ancient and modern Greeks and other none black African people around the world are genetically apart from black Africans. Period.

Misguided Jahdey once more can’t comprehand:
“Your quotations support me, your own typewriter agrees with me. Or maybe you cannot read what you are posting.”

David’s response:
No, my quotations debunk your views and prove you and them wrong. But I can see that you need a dictionary to understand what words like “NEW MOLECULAR TYPE”, “DISTINGUISHES”, “from the aboriginal region” mean.

More misinformation by Jahdey
“See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007). You need to be shown pictures of the aboriginals of Arabia and Southeast Asia. They are known as the Negritos and Veddoids of Southern Arab and India, and the Andamanese of South Asia. Think the Australian aboriginals, think the New Guineans.”

As usual if Jahdey read the actual paper he would have realised the swiss cheese holes the research work has such as the fact that the authors totally ignore evidence from Australia, i.e. Mongo Man and Woman(common ancestors of all people alive today) , who’s genes don’t fit the one common “out-of-Africa ancestor” model. Given Mongo Man, a physically modern man living in Australia over 40,000 years ago does not share any of the African genetic markers that the ’single common ancestor from one geographical location’ theory speaks of. Puts modern humans in that region of the world long before they’d left Africa.

“What conclusive genetic evidence remains for the “southern route” hypothesis? If the Indian subcontinent had received migrants from this putative migration from Africa to the Sahul, it would be reasonable to expect at least some remote affinities between African, Indian, Australian, and/or Papua-New-Guinean (PNG) gene pools. Unfortunately, to date, most studies aimed at detecting traces of an ancient peopling of South Asia through the southern route have not compared the Indian data in a wider context, in particular with people (except Africans) from regions believed to have been involved in the “southern route” migration. Alu insertions data are interpreted as supporting an ancient African-PNG relationship, but India is not a part of this relationship (Stoneking et al. 1997). Y-chromosome and mtDNA data suggest a connection between the Indian subcontinent and Australia, which is, however, dated to <5,000 years (Redd and Stoneking 1999; Redd et al. 2002; Cordaux et al. 2003). Thangaraj et al. (2003) suggest a possible common origin for the inhabitants of the Andaman Islands and PNG, on the basis of high frequencies of mtDNA 16357C in these two areas only. However, we note that 16357C in Andamanese mtDNAs occurs on the background of 16223T and 16319A, corresponding to haplogroup M (Endicott et al. 2003; Thangaraj et al. 2003). In contrast, 16357C in PNG is associated with 16223C and 16319G (Hagelberg et al. 1999; Redd and Stoneking 1999), corresponding to haplogroup N. Consequently, the presence of 16357C in the Andaman Islands and PNG is most likely the result of parallel mutations and not a signature of shared ancestry. In addition, the putative original paternal lineage of Andaman islanders (i.e., Y haplogroup D) (Thangaraj et al. 2003) is not found in Melanesia or Australia (Kayser et al. 2003). Otherwise, mtDNA haplotypes in South Asian ethnic groups are most closely related to east Eurasians and do not show any particular ties to African or PNG populations (Kivisild et al. 2003; Cordaux et al. 2003). In addition, an mtDNA control region motif proposed by Forster et al. (2001) to represent a signature of an early migration from Africa to Sahul through the southern route is not found in South Asia (Cordaux et al. 2003). In summary, there is no convincing support to date for a Middle Paleolithic genetic contribution to South Asia by migrants from Africa to Sahul along the southern route. If so, and in light of the genetic and archeological evidence, the most reasonable scenario for the peopling of South Asia is an Upper Paleolithic event (i.e., the major expansion of modern humans out of Africa through the Levant [Lahr and Foley 1994]), from which the current Indian gene pool is derived. Proto-Eurasians subsequently evolved to their present distinct South Asian, East Asian, and European gene pools and expanded ~30,000 years ago (Forster et al. 2001). ” – Copyright © 2003 by The American Society of Human Genetics. All rights reserved.
South Asia, the Andamanese, and the Genetic Evidence for an “Early” Human Dispersal out of Africa
Richard Cordaux and Mark Stoneking. “

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 Now I move on to Haplogorup DE.

Dave whines:
“The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.”

Real Scientists Respond:
…DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations….” See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007).

Jahdey Speaks: Lets talk about haplogroup E a little more to clear your befuddlement.

David bitches:
“WHY the study clearly states that the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE(NEW as in A DIFFERENT ONE) THAT DISTINGUISHES(definition: being different or distinct) from the aboriginal(definition:relating to the indigenous/origin i.e. Africa) in this case being different from aboriginal REGION(i.e. African) that the E3B arose in.”

Dave contradicts himself again:
Dave whines:
“The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into HAPLOGROUP E that SPREAD to EUROPE and AFRICA……..”

JAHDEY SPEAKS:
Again from the horse’s mouth, another inadvertent admission. Dave admits that Haplogroup E spread to Africa and Europe. Where in Europe???

Is this Haplogroup E of yours that migrated to Europe and Africa evidence of blood connection or not???

Goggle again for Origin of Haplogroup E to see where it comes from.

Origin of E-M78? See: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=E-M78+origin&meta=

Jahdey Speaks:

Now you are learning more things just that your mind is too dull. Are you a drinker or something?

E-M78 from BLACK Africa is the father of E-M78 alpha.

E-M78 migrated into Europe, Greece to be certain. He gave birth to E-M78 alpha.

Nordics like yourself are R1B or R1a. Nordics are not E-M78.

E-M78 and his child E-M78 alpha represent Africa’s footprint in Greece.

E-M78 probably came into Greece during the Neolithic (roughly 7,000 KYA) or possibly Post Neolithic which denotes a time line anywhere from 3 – 2 thousand years ago.

You do not even understand the garbage you spew out Dave.

Keep trying you will learn more good things on this site.

Goggle for the relationship between E-M78 and E-M78 alpha.

Case Done!!!

Now we proceed to Haplogroup A:

Real Scientists Speak:

A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa….

Dave said
on February 21, 2008 More lies and wishful thinking by Jahdey:
“A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa….”

David once more corrects the garbage that Jahdey falsely believes gives him the right to claim Greeks, a Caucasian white people, as “black Africans”. Pathetic:
Liar, I read Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 study on genetic markers in European populations, including the Greek ones, and only a SINGLE aka ONE haplogroup A (in other words ONE SUBJECT out of THREE HUNDRED AND NINTY-NINE GREEKS TESTED) was located out of over 400 Greek subjects tested; that doesn’t even equal to 1%. The remainder 399 Greek subjects ALL belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations, not black Africans.

I’ve never met anyone who spread lies like you do when scientific evidence and historical facts proves you wrong. Not one study of Greeks by credible scientific researchers has ever shown that Greeks carry the West African Hg A marker. You are also wrong of when the clade first appeared in the European region, it wasn’t through some ‘direct black Africans’ connection, ignorant one, but Near Eastern populations who left and lived outside of African, i.e. climate changes etc., for thousands of Millennium; this is where we see one of the many clade mutantations from the one in Africa because it arose separate in the Near East; from the Near East the clade further mutant and arose separate once again from the already mutant clade which is why scientist claim the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE that is different from the one found in its place of origin and why the E3b1 M78-alpha is NOT found in black Africans.

The divergence time (TD) (Zhivotovsky 2001) between the African and Near East lineages and then between the Near East and European lineages expanded at least ~30,000 years ago which makes the E3b1 M78-alpha clade, which originated in the Balkans and is the most common e3b in all Europe and not found in black Africans, one of the more far distantly related as far as splitting from the African lineages goes, given the new clade types that arose were in different evolutionary histories, which is WHY the study clearly states that the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE(NEW as in A DIFFERENT ONE) THAT DISTINGUISHES(definition: being different or distinct) from the aboriginal(definition:relating to the indigenous/origin i.e. Africa) in this case being different from aboriginal REGION(i.e. African) that the E3B arose in.

The “African” connection to European, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc. is a very distant/different genetic one from its place of origin. To try and claim that none black African people around the world are “black Africans” NOW because clades came out of Africa, is a slippery slope of genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic. Everybody came out of Africa. There are significant and distinct stages in phenotype and genotype that lead to the different founding populations of the world since people left Africa. BUT ancient/modern Greeks and other none black African people around the world are not ‘black Africans’. They are genetically apart from black Africans. Greeks are closer related genetically to other Caucasian people including Nordics then they ever were to black Africans, delusional one.

“Proto-Eurasians subsequently evolved to their present distinct South Asian, East Asian, and European gene pools and expanded ~30,000 years ago (Forster et al. 2001). ” – Copyright © 2003 by The American Society of Human Genetics. All rights reserved. South Asia, the Andamanese, and the Genetic Evidence for an “Early” Human Dispersal out of Africa Richard Cordaux and Mark Stoneking.

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 Now we proceed to Haplogroup A:

Real Scientists Speak:
A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa….

Dave babbles:
I read Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 study on genetic markers in European populations, including the Greek ones, and … haplogroup A ….. was located out of over 400 Greek subjects tested

Jahdey Speaks: Thanks Dave. That is my point. Haplogroup A from Africa has been detected in Greeks. You as much admited that. Your only problem is ascertaining the percentage. But it is there in Greece..and contradicts your point that Greeks have no Genetic profiles from West Africa.

Haplogroup DE.

Dave whines:
“The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.”

Real Scientists Respond:
…DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations….” See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007).

Jahdey Speaks: No answer or rebuttal from Dave. Are you stumped or something??? Common say something foolish and stupid to entertain me.

Haplogroup E

Dave contradicts himself again:

Dave whines:
“The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into HAPLOGROUP E that SPREAD to EUROPE and AFRICA……..”

JAHDEY SPEAKS:
Again from the horse’s mouth, another inadvertent admission. Dave admits that Haplogroup E spread to Africa and Europe. Where in Europe???

Is this Haplogroup E of yours that migrated to Europe and Africa evidence of blood connection or not???
Origin of E-M78? See: http://www.google.ca/search?hl…..#038;meta=

Jahdey Speaks: Where is your arrogance and hubris now Sucker…I thought Greeks and Africans shared no blood relationship as you so arrogantly declared on Feb 19, 2008.

We now proceed to Haplogroup K2. This gene again is found in Black Africans and amongst southern Europeans like Greeks, Spaniards, and Portugese.
Jahdey Speaks: Any comment Dave???

Dave said
on February 21, 2008 The Misinformation by Jahdey continues:
“A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa…. Thanks Dave. That is my point. Haplogroup A from Africa has been detected in Greeks. You as much admited that. Your only problem is ascertaining the percentage. But it is there in Greece..and contradicts your point that Greeks have no Genetic profiles from West Africa.”

David’s reply:
You are still wrong, Jahdey , as is your point of view. On the contrary Di Giacomo et al study proves your opinion on this matter to be dubious. The mere fact that the study is inconsistent with your fallacy that Greeks carry the Haplogroup A is very telling on what your agenda on this issue is. The Hg A maker was found in ONLY ONE test subject, hardly any evidence of much of anything never mind your dubious claim of “West African markers” in Greeks. In other words the study goes against your fallacies that Greeks carry the Haplogroup A. The Di Giacomo et al. study clearly shows Greeks don’t carry this maker and the study even goes on to show that finding just ONE among hundreds of Greek test subjects is an anomaly(that means its not part of the Greek gene pool at all) and can also be the result of a false positive.

More Misinformation by Jahdey:
“:…DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations….” See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007).”

David’s reply:
Its funny that you keep using Underhill as your source but don’t mention the fact that he clearly believes clades originating in African and spread throughout the world over thousands of millenniums, like the DE, are not evidence for black ancestry of none black African people though out the world. But then again no surprise there, spreading half truths and misinformation is your MO.

Psuedo postings by Jahdey:
“Again from the horse’s mouth, another inadvertent admission. Dave admits that Haplogroup E spread to Africa and Europe. Where in Europe???
Where is your arrogance and hubris now Sucker…I thought Greeks and Africans shared no blood relationship as you so arrogantly declared on Feb 19, 2008.”

David’s reply to the BS spread by Jahdey:
Nowhere did I or any of the scientists who research this topic ever make the claim that Greeks share any ‘black African blood’; that’s only in Afrocentric misguided fantasies. Clearly in the research work of genetics world wide it shows that the E3b1 is not an index for black ancestry. I know its hard for someone like you to understand but the E3b1-M78Alpha is not a black African clade; the M78 is not a single E3b1 lineage, they are just simply downstream markers.

More horse manure from Jahdey:
“We now proceed to Haplogroup K2. This gene again is found in Black Africans and amongst southern Europeans like Greeks, Spaniards, and Portugese.
Jahdey Speaks: Any comment Dave???”

Corrections by David once more:
Haplogroup K2 first appeared approximately 40,000 years ago in Iran or southern Central Asia. Your illogic reasoning regarding human evolution is beyond reasoning. All none black Africans might have a common ancestry originating from Africa BUT that does not mean they have black African genetic lineage, Southern Europeans included.

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 Dave crows:
Feb 19 6:33 pm
“For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated…”

3 days later, David throws in the towel and admits Greek’s African ancestry:
Feb 21, 2008 at 3:41 pm:
“The “African” connection to European, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc. is a very distant/different genetic one from its place of origin.”

JAHDEY SPEAKS: Now we are admitting that there are some connections though “very distant” (what ever you are trying to babble)…

But from the David’s own mouth we also heard that:

1)”The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into HAPLOGROUP E that SPREAD to EUROPE and AFRICA……..”

2) “The “African” connection to European, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc. is a very distant/different genetic one from its place of origin.”

Thanks David. Case Closed.

David continues to retreat in fear and jabber incomprehensibly:
“To try and claim that none black African people around the world are “black Africans” NOW because clades came out of Africa, is a slippery slope of genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic.”

JAHDEY SPEAKS: Noone made such a claim anywhere but you. Straw man’s fallacy. The claim was that genetic studies identified African blood connections with Greece which must have occurred in historical and pre-historical times. Re-read the main article again, David.

Besides David, I thought Greeks had no genetic relationship with Africans. See your comment on Feb 19, 2008.

Why are you changing your position now? What ever made you see light???

David surrenders:
Feb 21, 2008 at 3:41 pm:
“Everybody came out of Africa.”

JAHDEY SPEAKS: No David, people like yourself do not have any African ancestry. You did not come from Africa. You said so so on Feb. 19, 2008 at 6:33 pm. See your own comment.

Today, you shift the goal post. You want to claim African ancestry too. You are not from Africa.

There were many ancient Greeks who had African origin as proven by DNA and skeletal evidence. But you are neither Greek nor African. Don’t let me ever catch you try to sneak in a spurious claim of African origin. You too David?? LOL!!!

Go look for your origin in the caves of Europe.

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 21, 2008 Jahdey, you are a bubbling ignorant individual. No one admitted anything about your phantom “black African connection” other then to state the Greeks have the same amount of “connection” to Africa as every other none black African population does: not much and hardly anything to write home about. Nowhere did I or any of the scientists who research this topic ever make the claim that Greeks share any ‘black African blood’; that’s only in Afrocentric misguided fantasies. Clearly in the research work of genetics world wide it shows that the E3b1 is not an index for black ancestry, so your fallacy that it shows Greeks having some phantom “black African ancestry” connection is ludicrous given the the E3b1 M78-alpha is a Balkan origin clade, not black African.

More Horse Manure coming out of Jahdey’s mouth:
“But David, I thought Greeks had no genetic relationship with Africans. See your comment on Feb 19, 2008. Why are you changing your position now? No David, people like yourself do not have any African ancestry. You did not come from Africa. You said so so on Feb. 19, 2008 at 6:33 pm. See your own comment. Today, you shift the goal post. You are not from Africa”

Davids reply:
You thought right, they don’t have any genetic relationship with Africans. There ‘genetic relation’ is the same as any other none African people: in regards to the “Out of Africa” theory, after thousand of millenniums mutations and different historical variation consists of African and non-African elements and the separate mutations that arose in different geographical and phenotype there is hardly much of a “genetic relationship”. Nothing has changed my mind because I never stated Greeks have black African ancestry.That’s in Afrocentric misguided fantasies like yourself. Its not my fault you can’t comprehand human evolution.

More fallacies by Jahdey:
“There were many Greeks who had African origin as proven by DNA and skeletal evidence. But you are neither Greek nor African. Don’t let me ever catch you try to sneak in a spurious claim of African origin. You too David?? LOL!!! Go look for your origin in the caves of Europe”

David’s reply:
No there weren’t. There were hardly any Greeks who had African origins in the way you are dubiously claiming because the mutation that defines the E3b1 M78-alpha clade in Southern Europeans like the Greeks is absent in ‘black Africans’. Greeks and other Europeans do have an ancestral connection to people from the Near East but not ‘black Africans’. This has been proven to be true by DNA, skeletal remains, historical and scientific evidence that shows zero proof of your dubious claim.

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 Dave crows:
Feb 19 6:33 pm
“For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated…”

After much discipling by Jahdey, Dave eats his own vomit!!

David rolls over:
“All none black Africans might have a common ancestry originating from Africa … Southern Europeans included.” February 21st, 2008 at 6:51 pm

Jahdey Speaks: Smart boy, smart boy. Good, you are learning fast!

Although you must remember, you David do not come from Africa. Your origin lies in some cave in Eurolandia! LOL!

Jahdey Speaks:
Now, more DNA classes for Dave:

1) . See A. Hajjej et al., “HLA genes in Southern Tunisians

(Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European

Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present

study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This

suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans

probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred

in Sahara.”

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7RKV-4FFN9D5-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a328c136bfba074b8a6ca730c0833a25

mtDNA Evidence:

2) An examination by a geneticist acquaintance reveals haplogroup M (East African

M1) in Greeks. Also found are one sub-Saharan L3e and one sub-Saharan M1 in

a sample of 90 Sicilians from Troina (n.=42) and Trapani (n.=48 ). In 69

Sardinians, there are one L1a and one L2a. In 48 Romans there are one L2a and

one L3b sequences. http://backintyme.com/admixture/richards01.pdf

http://onedroprule.org/viewtopic.php?t=1071

Dave said
on February 21, 2008 More Horse Manure from Jahdey:
“Smart boy, smart boy. Good, you are learning fast!”

Davids reply:
Obviously you don’t, given you have still to under the simple fact of human evolution.

More nonsense from Jahdey:
“Although you must remember, you David do not come from Africa. Your origin lies in some cave in Eurolandia! LOL!”

Davids reply:
Your illogical thinking is very comical; it show the agenda you have in turning none African black people like the Greeks who have no genetic connection to black Africans, into ‘black’. You are ridiculous. By that logic, neither did Greeks. LOL!!

More Horse Manure by Jahdey from a pseudo paper:
“1) Regarding Greece, another study has found sub-Saharan DNA in the modern Greek population. According to A. Hajjej et al., “HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.””

David corrects ignorant Jahdey again:
This is not new, nor did you provide anything credible, its the same useless study copied from the Arnaiz study. They didn’t even do their own tests or research. This Tunisian fallacy that you posted did not analyze any Greek genetic material, nor did any unbiased laboratory contribute to their research. Their results were taken straight from that dubious Arnaiz-Villena paper. They only compare their results with the fallacies found in Arnaiz-Villena and thus repeated the same dubious conclusion.

And yet still more Horse Manure from Jahdey:
“mtDNA Evidence:
2) An examination by a geneticist acquaintance reveals haplogroup M (East African M1) in Greeks. Also found are one sub-Saharan L3e and one sub-Saharan M1 in a sample of 90 Sicilians from Troina (n.=42) and Trapani (n.=48 ). In 69 Sardinians, there are one L1a and one L2a. In 48 Romans there are one L2a and one L3b sequences. http://backintyme.com/admixture/richards01.pdf
http://onedroprule.org/viewtopic.php?t=1071

Davids reply:
Greeks don’t carry ‘black African’ mtDNA, Mr. Nimwit, if you read that paper instead of just posting certain segments from useless and misleading sites you would have realized the paper speaks about NEAR EASTERNERS being the distributors of mtDNA in most of Europe/Asia etc., including to Greeks, the “M” lineage the paper sites is due to EURASIAN lineage from CENTRAL and EASTERN Asian, NOT Africa. That is why the study is calls “Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool (2000)”, not sub-Sahara Africa. I suggest you actually read the research papers you keep posting because unlike what you falsely believe they don’t support your arguments.

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 “HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.””

David corrects ignorant Jahdey again:
This is not new, nor did you provide anything credible, its the same useless study copied from the Arnaiz study. They didn’t even do their own tests or research. This Tunisian fallacy that you posted did not analyze any Greek genetic material, nor did any unbiased laboratory contribute to their research. Their results were taken straight from that dubious Arnaiz-Villena paper. They only compare their results with the fallacies found in Arnaiz-Villena and thus repeated the same dubious conclusion.

JAHDEY SPEAKS: Cite a source for this statement. Post me a link to confirm your claims.

Dave said
on February 21, 2008 If you read the research paper you would have known they did not conduct their own study but just copied the fallacies found in the Arnaiz-Villena paper since he is their source.

Jahdey said
on February 21, 2008 Dave cite a source that challenges the paper, the name of the scientist who rebutted it …you know scholars.

No generalizations. Specifics, facts. Give me a source. I gave you a sourced reference, rebut it with sources.

Dave said
on February 22, 2008 They didn’t do their own research work in regards to the Greek genetic material, they used the findings provided by the dubious Arniez-Villena paper. The original source they used is the Arniez-Villena et study, meaning its fruit from the poisonous tree given Arniez-Villena’s work has already been heavily criticized by many of the world’s leading experts in this field. This article published as the original contributor for their Greeks “findings” being Arniez-Villena et , in other words their findings are not only heavily influenced by the Arniez-Villena study but they took them straight from the Arniez-Villena study. They did not even conduct their own tests on tis issue nor did they do independent research, they did not analyze any Greek genetic material, nor did any unbiased laboratory contribute to their research. If you read their paper you would have seen the paper credits with a numerical footnote next to said “Greek findings” the Arniez-Villena et study for their “results”.

Jahdey said
on February 22, 2008 # Jahdey replied:
Dave cite a source that challenges the paper, the name of the scientist who rebutted it …you know scholars.
February 21st, 2008 at 10:20 pm.

And David began to jabber:
# Dave replied:

They didn’t do their own research work in regards to the Greek genetic material… and blah blah blah…etc etc.

Jahdey SPEAKS:

David that is not a peer reviewed reference source I asked for.

My authority was published in a peer reviewed article: European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006.

If you cannot produce one scholarly authority challenging or debunking the finding, then you will have to accept its authority.

I am waiting…

“HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.””

Dave said
on February 22, 2008 This is not a peer review and your ‘authority’ is pseudo on this matter. Ok let me put it for you in more simpler terms so you can understand: the Tunisian study did not analyze any Greek genetic material on their own. So if they didn’t test any Greek subjects independently on their own, where do you think their “Greek results” came from? The answer is in the paper itself. If you read the whole study you would have seen they credit the dubious Arniez-Villena paper for the Greek results, hence its fruit from the poisonous tree given Arniez-Villena’s work has already been heavily criticized by many of the world’s leading experts in this field. End result, they didn’t confirm nor produce anything new regarding the Greek genetic material since they just took the old dubious material found in the Arniez-Villena study.

‘Regarding the Arniez-Villena study, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza-probably the world’s leading expert on studies of this sort-and his colleagues stated, “Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”37 Greeks clustered with other European populations on genetic maps, far from the aggregation of North African and sub-Saharan groups.’- The Gene Wars: Diana Muir Appelbaum ; Paul S. Appelbaum

Jahdey said
on February 22, 2008 Dave is running out of arguments:
‘Regarding the Arniez-Villena study, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza-probably the world’s leading expert .. stated,…blah blah blah…jabber jabber…

JAHDEY SPEAKS:
I gave you this article by: A. Hajjej et al., “HLA genes in Southern Tunisians(Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European

Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56.
Yet you are jabbering about Arniaz’s article which has been validated over and again except by racist wishful thinkers like you.

But this one is a different article. The writer of this article is Prof. Hajjej.

It says Greeks have genes from sub-saharan Africa.
It was published by European Experts in a Renowned Peer Reviewed European Journal on Genetics.

Yet you are still jabbering about Arniaz. Address Hajjej’s paper.

Find me one authority that rebuts its premise or Hajjej’s conclusion.

Come boy, I am waiting…your time is running out.

Dave said
on February 22, 2008 The only one jabbering nonsense around here is you, who can’t comprehend the simple fact that Arniez-Villena is being mentioned because that is from where your pseudo Tunisian study takes its information regarding the Greek genetic. Haven’t you ever read or written an actual research paper before? You know where you site your sources with numerical foot notes? Well that is what Prof. Hajjej does in this paper, he sites the dubious work of the Arniez-Villena study in regards to the Greek genetic because that is from where he got it from. The Tunisians did not conduct any studies on Greek subjects. Which brings me to another point: it figures you would totally ignored a major factor in the study that I pointed out which contradicts you on this issue, that being:

THAT THE TUNISIAN STUDY BY PROF. HAJJEJ DID NOT ANALYZE ANY GREEK GENETIC MATERIAL ON THEIR OWN. SO WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY GOT THEIR CONCLUSIONS FROM, HUH, THE SKY? ARNIEZ-VILLENA IS BEING BROUGHT UP BECAUSE THAT IS FROM WHERE THE TUNISIAN STUDY GOT THEIR DUBIOUS RESULTS REGARDING THE GREEK GENETIC.

Jahdey said
on February 22, 2008 JAHDEY demanded:
Find me one authority that rebuts its premise or Hajjej’s conclusion.
Come boy, I am waiting…your time is running out.

Dave is caught, confused and desperate he loses it;
THAT THE TUNISIAN STUDY BY PROF. HAJJEJ DID NOT ANALYZE ANY GREEK GENETIC MATERIAL ON THEIR OWN.

JAHDEY SPEAKS: Dave we asked you to provide a referenced source to back up your claim.
You are too unqualified, too fresh to counter peer reviewed from “Journal of Medical Genetics” on your own.

This journal is produced by educated European specialists in genetic science. You need sourced peer reviewed authoritative articles to rebut it. PLEASE CITE AN ARTICLE THAT REBUTS THE FOLLOWING CLAIM:

“HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.””

Your time is almost up. If you have nothing substantive to cite then say so.

Jahdey

Dave said
on February 22, 2008 Jahdey, its sad that you can’t comprehend the simple fact that Arniez-Villena is being mentioned because that is from where your pseudo Tunisian study takes its information regarding the Greek genetic.

For example: as opposed to how Arniez-Villena conducted his dubious study, Ayub 2003 used 182 loci to group several of the world populations, including Greeks, based on genetic distances. Their results reveal Greeks are far distance from black Africans, and share a closeness to other Europeans & Caucasian people. This is what is known as INDEPENDENTLY studying the subject; conducting the tests which leads to coming to the conclusions ON YOUR OWN that either supports or does not support other findings conducted. The Ayub 2003 study confirmed the results of most other studies done on Greeks: they are far distance from black Africans and share a common ancestry with Europeans and other Caucasian people. On the other hand the Tunisian study did not study Greek subjects INDEPENDENTLY, as Ayub 2003, Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi, Piazza, Petlichkovski and others did who all concluded no black African admixture was detected in the Greek subjects they conducted test upon. Instead what the Tunisians just do is sources the dubious paper of Arniez-Villena, in other words their paper just underwent specific selections for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies to shape their findings bases upon the Tunisians subjects they were conducting their studies upon; given they conducted NO studies on Greeks and sited a pseudo paper as their source, their findings are dubious and as such an unacceptable practice in population genetics.

Jahdey said
on February 22, 2008 JAHDEY demanded:
Find me one authority that rebuts its premise or Hajjej’s conclusion.
Come boy, I am waiting…your time is running out.

Dave continues to jabber and dogde:
“For example: as opposed to how Arniez-Villena conducted his dubious study, Ayub 2003 used jabber jabber jabber…etc….”

JAHDEY SPEAKS
It is clear now that you cannot produce anything. You rely on rumours, inconsistent logic, lies, and sundry hog-wash; as well as logical fallacies of poisoning the well and goal post shifting.

I gave you more than 24 hours to produce one paper that contradicts Hajjej’s paper and all you have to give me is your uneducated opinion.

That being so, the opinion of Prof. Hajjej expressed and accepted by the experts at the European Medical Journal of Genetics in 2006 must then prevail.

“HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.””

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7RKV-4FFN9D5-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a328c136bfba074b8a6ca730c0833a25

CASE CLOSED!!!

Next Citation:
“Haplotype analysis has demonstrated that the sickle cell trait in Sicily, northern Greece and western Arabia is in linkage disequilibrum with the Benin (Nigeria) haplotype in western central Africa. This constitues direct evidence for gene flow linked to human migration from central Africa to Mediterranean Europe in historical times…”

See “Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity: New Approaches to Old Problems” Med. Hist. 2004 July 1; 48(3): 311-328.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=547919

Jahdey said
on February 23, 2008 Dave

That being so, the opinion of Prof. Hajjej expressed and accepted by the experts at the European Medical Journal of Genetics in 2006 must then prevail.

“HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. THIS SUGGESTS that there was an ADMIXTURE between the GREEKS AND Sub-Saharans probably DURING PHARONIC PERIOD or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.””

http://www.sciencedirect.com/s…..30c0833a25

CASE CLOSED!!!

Next Citation:
“Haplotype analysis has demonstrated that the sickle cell trait in Sicily, northern Greece and western Arabia is in linkage disequilibrum with the Benin (Nigeria) haplotype in western central Africa. THIS CONSTITUTES DIRECT EVIDENCE FOR GENE FLOW linked to human migration FROM CENTRAL AFRICA TO MEDITERRANEAN EUROPE IN HISTORICAL TIMES…”

See “Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity: New Approaches to Old Problems” Med. Hist. 2004 July 1; 48(3): 311-328.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g…..tid=547919

Go read the papers Dave…you need to be schooled properly.

JAHDEY SPEAKS: I am still waiting for a rational answer from David… 36 hours later…

Dave said
on February 26, 2008 There is no case to close because all you do is spread misinformation, as always.

Just like Jahdey to once again misquoting what the papers says. If you bothered to read the whole god damn report instead of spreading misinformation you would have known that the Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity” study says very clearly, “that each region evolves its own mutations” SEPARATELY. You also forgot to mention the fact that in the next line after the one you posted states THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT SICKLE CELL IN SOUTHERN EUROPE/M.E./SOUTH ASIA AROSE INDEPENDENTLY MAKING THEM LOCAL ORIGIN FOUND IN LOCAL INHABITANTS THAT AROSE SEPARATE FROM THE AFRICAN ONES. – A Kulozik, J Wainscoat, G Serjeant, B Kar, B Al-Awamy, et al., ‘Geographical survey of βS-globin gene haplotypes: evidence for an independent origin of the sickle-cell mutation’, Am. J. Hum. Genet., 1986, 39: 239–44

“Alternatively he might have been one of the local inhabitants, since there is molecular evidence for an independent origin of the sickle-cell trait in India and eastern Arabia, with a different haplotype association. The Indian variant of homozygous sickle-cell disease displays a mild clinical phenotype, associated with high levels of foetal haemoglobin which inhibits sickling.63 This could explain how the Failaka individual survived to adulthood.” – Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity”

BTW, Mr. Misinformation, the quote that you provided doesn’t speak about individuals living in Europe BUT of migrant EUROPEANS during the Hellenistic/Roman period who relocated into N. Africa and intermixed with local populations. Here is another interested piece of tibit that points to the fact that most ancient osteological evidence for thalassaemia comes from the NEAR EAST, not tropical Africa as “certain individuals” would like everyone to falsely believe:

“The most ancient osteological evidence for thalassaemia comes from the Near East, from a skeleton excavated at the now submerged village of Atlit Yam off the coast of Israel, dating to about 10,000 years ago.55″ – Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity”

From that same paper here is more evidence that debunks Jahdey’s fallacies and states very clearly that the most frequent β-thalassaemia mutations in Mediterranean populations today ORIGINATED in Southern Europe & Anatolia, not tropical Africa:

“One of the two most frequent β-thalassaemia mutations in Mediterranean populations today, the B + IVS nt 110 mutation (G→A), which occurs in areas of Greek colonization in Italy, attains its highest frequencies today in eastern Mediterranean countries. It is very common in Greece, and is also associated with a high level of haplotype diversity in Turkey.72 Consequently, Italian scientists suggested that this particular mutation originated in Greece or Anatolia and was spread westwards to Italy by Greek colonization from the eighth century BC onwards.73″- A Cao, M Gossens, and M Pirastu, ‘β-thalassaemia mutations in Mediterranean populations’, Br. J. Haematology,

More evidence that debunks Jahdey’s fallacies where it states the routes taken whereby the virus found its way to Southern Europe was N. Africa in Western Europe and Near East in Eastern Europe, again no direct route from tropical Africa mention anywhere:

“Adding up all this evidence, a picture emerges of two quite separate routes whereby malaria itself, its vector mosquitoes, and the associated human genetic mutations which give some degree of resistance to malaria, reached southern Europe in the past. One route passed from Tunisia in North Africa, via Sicily and Sardinia, to Italy. The second route commenced in the eastern Mediterranean and led from the Levant or Anatolia to Greece and then on to Italy.” – Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity”

FACTS that speak about the origins of the Mosquitos who spread the disorder into Southern Europe not only does the paper state they are different species, but they also have different geographical distributions and origins. A. labranchiae, the most important vector in central and southern Italy, originated in North Africa, while A. sacharovi, the most important vector of malaria in Greece originated in the Near East, again their place of origins are not tropical Africa:

“Not only are they different species, but they also have different geographical distributions and origins. A. labranchiae, the most important vector in central and southern Italy, originated in North Africa. It is a non-diapausing species of mosquito which remains active throughout the year and indeed breeds all the year round in North Africa, but cannot do so in mainland Italy. It had to stay inside houses or man-made animal shelters to survive the winter in southern Europe.77 In contrast A. sacharovi, the most important vector of malaria in Greece, tends to hibernate, a useful habit for surviving southern European winters. The Near East, the centre of its geographical distribution today, was presumably its refuge during the glacial periods. The hypothesis is proposed here that A. sacharovi spread from the Near East to Greece (together with other Near Eastern vectors such as A. superpictus) a considerable time before A. labranchiae spread from North Africa to mainland Italy.” – Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity”

Another deliburate fact left out by Jahdey regarding Sickle Cell disorder is in where that same study by Robert Sallares and other scientific studies that state sickle cell is found at a very LOW frequency, of about less then 2 per cent, in Mediterranean populations. HARDLY an “overwhelming” evidence that Black Africans brought or altered the genetic makeup of Southern Europe or the N.E given less then 2% of these populations carry the virus and to the most important fact that most scientific evidence points to independent origins of the sickle-cell trait in all geographical regions.

“Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY. ” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

Science contradicts your false claims. Sickle cell disorder is not an African origin disease as you so falsely claim. In Greece the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in NORTHERN Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS.

Jahdey, obvioulsy STILL can’t comprehend the simple fact that scientific evidence proves him wrong and misquoting research papers doesn’t help his case at all. Arniez-Villena is being mentioned because that is from where your pseudo Tunisian study because HE IS THE SOURCE FROM WHERE THE TUNISIAN STUDY takes its information regarding the Greek genetic. THE TUNISIANS DID NOT EVEN TEST ANY GREEK SUBJECTS. Keep misquoting what the facts are, science and history proves you wrong time and again.

‘Regarding the Arniez-Villena study, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza-probably the world’s leading expert on studies of this sort-and his colleagues stated the following, “Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”37 Greeks clustered with other European populations on genetic maps, far from the aggregation of North African and sub-Saharan groups.’- The Gene Wars: Diana Muir Appelbaum ; Paul S. Appelbaum

Jahdey said
on February 26, 2008 Dave

You are in denial! But that is fine since you are neither Greek nor African so it matters not.

But I will still toy with you one little bit:

DAVE SQUEAKS:
Another deliburate fact left out by Jahdey regarding Sickle Cell disorder is in where that same study by Robert Sallares and other scientific studies that state sickle cell is found at a very LOW frequency, of about less then 2 per cent, in Mediterranean populations. HARDLY an “overwhelming” evidence that Black Africans brought or altered the genetic makeup of Southern Europe or the N.E given less then 2% of these populations carry the virus and to the most important fact that most scientific evidence points to independent origins of the sickle-cell trait in all geographical regions.

JAHDEY ANSWERS: So now you admit the evidence. Confess then that your confusion lies in percentages so that we can clarify that for you also.
In any event, you just admitted that 2% of the mediterranean population bear African HBS 19. That numbers millions of people.

Those Mediterranean Africans were the original people of the Aegean Sea Islands. That is all that is left today following massacares, disenfranchisement, robberies, immigration, etc.

DAVE SQUEAKS:
“Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY. ” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

JAHDEY CLARIFIES:
Yes, Dave, that quotation is from Dr. Graham who had already shown you that it was CONCLUSIVELY determined that HBS 19 from Benin West Africa went to Greece in historical times.

So in this passage, you are shown that the FREQUENCY of its DISTRIBUTION is linked with malaria and not African ancestry.

It does not contradict the fact that the ORIGIN of HBS 19 is AFRICA.

In otherwords, HBS HAPLOTYPE 19 ORIGINATED in Africa and moved on to Greece. Therein, environmental factors like malaria contributed to ITS INCREASED FREQUENCY.

There boy, is the misconception you have been sadly under for so long. I did not bother addressing it with you earlier because it was so pedestrain an issue it outed you as a novice, pretender wannabe in the field of genetic studies.

You still have more to learn in genetics before attempting to reproduce lines which meaning rank above your comprehension.

DAVE SQUEAKS:
The higher hemoglobin and lower reticulocyte counts are consistent with less hemolysis, but Greek subjects have NEITHER OF THE GENETIC FACTORS RECOGNIZED to ameliorate hemolysis IN PATIENTS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS , alpha thalassemia or high levels of HbF. Clinically, Greek SS subjects show persistence of splenomegaly, more normal body build, and less leg ulceration and priapism.” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

JAHDEY RESPONDS:
Dave, in your little imagination what does this passage have to do with the origin of sickle cell haplotype 19, or are you just being self-serving and distractionary? You want to pull the red herring fallacy?

The passage talks about ameliorating factors of sickle cell disease…not SICKLE CELL GENES. Those are different things.

Real Greeks usually have HBS 19 genes which originated from Africa.

DAVE BITCHES:
In Greece the ‘highest’ frequency of the trait is found in NORTHERN Greeks who VIRTUALLY HAVE NO HAPLOGROUPS THAT ARE A TYPICAL TO THOSE FOUND IN BLACK AFRICANS.

JAHDEY ANSWERS:
The Sickle Cell trait found in Greeks is an African haplotype.

There is no gene that marks for colour as in Black Africans. That is your Black heart speaking lies and hatred.

Genes are associated with geographical background and not with colour. Genes normally found in many areas of tropical Africa are also found in cold intemperate Europe.

Telling by genetic profile alon, sometimes one cannot distinguish Pink-pale Europeans from Dark-Brown Africans.

For example:
“The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa..”

Sicily,#4 = source Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41. – implications for gene flow in recent ti

“HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. THIS SUGGESTS that there was an ADMIXTURE between the GREEKS AND Sub-Saharans probably DURING PHARONIC PERIOD or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.””

http://www.sciencedirect.com/s…..30c0833a25

CASE CLOSED!!!

Next Citation:
“Haplotype analysis has demonstrated that the sickle cell trait in Sicily, northern Greece and western Arabia is in linkage disequilibrum with the Benin (Nigeria) haplotype in western central Africa. THIS CONSTITUTES DIRECT EVIDENCE FOR GENE FLOW linked to human migration FROM CENTRAL AFRICA TO MEDITERRANEAN EUROPE IN HISTORICAL TIMES…”

See “Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity: New Approaches to Old Problems” Med. Hist. 2004 July 1; 48(3): 311-328.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g…..tid=547919

A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa…

David, you are now being highly irrational in your argument.

You may want to posture like you are debating with me, but you cannot debate the European Medical Genetics Journal which provided one of the sources for the thesis that African HBS Haplotype 19 is also found in Greeks.

European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56,

Finally,

This is the quotation that you have been having wet racist dreams over:

“Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. The factor in common to the distribution of the sickle cell gene is therefore malaria and not African ancestry….”

Below I post the entire passage to demonstrate what a low life lieing skunk racist you really are:

“Studies of the structure of DNA surrounding the beta globin locus reveal that the sickle cell gene is associated with several DNA structures probably representing DIFFERENT ANCESTRAL POPULATIONS. The most likely interpretation is that the sickle cell mutation is a relatively recent occurrence that has occurred independently in several different populations. Falciparum malaria then acted as a selective factor, increasing the prevalence of the gene because people inheriting the sickle cell gene from one parent and a gene for normal adult hemoglobin from the other parent (sickle cell trait) were less likely to die from malaria and so more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. The factor in common to the distribution of the sickle cell gene is therefore malaria and not African ancestry……”

There, doesn’t that give you a better context of what Dr. Graham Sergeant is driving at?

Especially when we know this already:

The origin of the mutation that led to the sickle cell gene was initially thought to be in the Arabian peninsula, spreading to Asia and Africa. It is now known, from evaluation of chromosome structures, that there have been at least four independent mutational events, three in Africa and a fourth in either Saudi Arabia or central India. See
Desai, D. V.; Hiren Dhanani (2004). “Sickle Cell Disease: History And Origin”. The Internet Journal of Haematology 1 (2). ISSN 1540-2649.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease

It has been conclusively demonstrated that HbS in Greece is mostly haplotype #19 (the one that originated in Benin, Nigeria West Africa). See, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P.; The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Unit for Prenatal Diagnosis, Laikon Hospital, Athens, Greece.

wisdom said
on February 26, 2008 Sickle cell’s root is malaria, however, it’s origin is in Benin and the only spread is through admixture. Europeans have the same sickle cell present in those of west african stock.

Dave said
on February 26, 2008 You Jahdey, are an African, not a Greek, so trying to claim the identity and history of another people is the worst kind of thievery. That’s the difference between me and you: I don’t try to steal another cultures identity and history, you on the other hand are, based on nothing by fallacies.

Misquotes by Jahdey once again:
“So now you admit the evidence. Confess then that your confusion lies in percentages so that we can clarify that for you also. In any event, you just admitted that 2% of the mediterranean population bear African HBS 19. That numbers millions of people. ”

No Mr. Misinformation that is not what is being said. What scientific studies have proven is that LESS THEN 2% OF MEDITERRANEAN POPULATIONS EVEN CARRY THE DISORDER AND THE MOST IMPORTANT FACT FROM THAT IS: MOST SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE POINTS TO INDEPENDENT ORIGINS OF SICKLE-CELL TRAIT IN DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHICAL PEOPLE & REGIONS.

More lies by Jahdey:
“Those Mediterranean Africans were the original people of the Aegean Sea Islands. That is all that is left today following massacares, disenfranchisement, robberies, immigration, etc. ”

Wrong you are again given all scientific and historical evidence shows no direct tropical African route to those regions. Those Mediterranean populations were not African at all. In fact if you bothered to read any of the papers you keep source you would have seen all scientific, historic and archeological evidence shows there was no direct route from tropical Africans to the Mediterranean or the Aegean Sea Islands, so no they were not “Mediterranean Africans” as Afrocentric like to falsely believe. Genetics has proven that their historical link is with people from Asia and the Near East and yet you don’t hear people from the Near East or Asia(who’s genetic link with Southern Europeans is much closer then tropical Africans) try to claim them as “Asians” or “Near Easterners” only you Afrocentric try to turn the whole world’s populations into “African”.

JAHDEY MISINFORMS AGAIN:
“Yes, Dave, that quotation is from Dr. Graham who had already shown you that it was CONCLUSIVELY determined that HBS 19 from Benin West Africa went to Greece in historical times.”

Graham R. Serjeant very clearly states the GENE for sickle-cell is MALARIA and not AFRICAN ANCESTRY, proven you wrong once again: – “Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. THE FACTOR IN COMMON TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE SICKLE CELL GENE IS THEREFORE MALARIA AND NOT AFRICAN ANCESTRY. ” – Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP, The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease” – Per:Graham R. Serjeant. MRC Laboratories, University of the West Indies The Geography Of Sickle Cell Disease:Opportunities for understanding its diversity

More Misinterpretations by JAHDEY:
“So in this passage, you are shown that the FREQUENCY of its DISTRIBUTION is linked with malaria and not African ancestry.
It does not contradict the fact that the ORIGIN of HBS 19 is AFRICA.
In otherwords, HBS HAPLOTYPE 19 ORIGINATED in Africa and moved on to Greece. Therein, environmental factors like malaria contributed to ITS INCREASED FREQUENCY.”

That is not what the passage says, there “boy”, you once again left out several crucial elements from your misinformation: The Sickle Cell GENE is therefore MALARIA and not AFRICAN ANCESTRY. The passage clearly states that those who have sickle-cell do not get it through your phantom ” AFRICAN ANCESTRY”, they get it through the GENE that causes MALARIA and Graham R. Serjeant clearly states this GENE does not imply AFRICAN ANCESTRY.

JAHDEY Lies again:
“Real Greeks usually have HBS 19 genes which originated from Africa.
The Sickle Cell trait found in Greeks is an African haplotype.”

Wrong once again, Jahdey, real Greeks genetically are linked to Eurasians. There are less then 2% of Greeks who test for the sickle cell trait and these Greeks carry haplotypes that are not found in tropical Africans, further proof that sickle-cell originated in different populations, different geographical areas, different historic times and different origins.

Jahdey misnformation:
“There is no gene that marks for colour as in Black Africans. That is your Black heart speaking lies and hatred.”

You are the one who is trying to steal a peoples identity, history and culture by turning them into West Africans ’sub-saharan’ blacks, as this fallacy of an article clearly states at the top page. So don’t sit there and try to tell us Afrocentric like you are not trying to turn world’s populations into ‘black Africans’.

Jahdey lies:
“Genes are associated with geographical background and not with colour. Genes normally found in many areas of tropical Africa are also found in cold intemperate Europe.”

There you go again, trying to turn people who are not Africans into “Africans”, your agenda in all this can be seen very clearly. Instead of stealing other peoples identity, history and culture I suggest you concentrate on your own.

Jahdey lies again:
“The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa..” Sicily,#4 = source Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41. – implications for gene flow in recent ti

Even the Mosquitos who brought sickle-cell disorder to Southern Europe are not of tropical African origins:
“Not only are they different species, but they also have different geographical distributions and origins. A. labranchiae, the most important vector in central and southern Italy, originated in North Africa. It is a non-diapausing species of mosquito which remains active throughout the year and indeed breeds all the year round in North Africa, but cannot do so in mainland Italy. It had to stay inside houses or man-made animal shelters to survive the winter in southern Europe.77 In contrast A. sacharovi, the most important vector of malaria in Greece, tends to hibernate, a useful habit for surviving southern European winters. The Near East, the centre of its geographical distribution today, was presumably its refuge during the glacial periods. The hypothesis is proposed here that A. sacharovi spread from the Near East to Greece (together with other Near Eastern vectors such as A. superpictus) a considerable time before A. labranchiae spread from North Africa to mainland Italy.” – Robert Sallares, M.A. Ph.D; Abigail Bouwman, MSc, PHD and Cecilia Anderung, MSc, “The Spread of Malaria to Southern Europe in Antiquity”

The Tunisian pseudo study that uses the Arniez-Villena study as its source:
“HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. THIS SUGGESTS that there was an ADMIXTURE between the GREEKS AND Sub-Saharans probably DURING PHARONIC PERIOD or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.””

‘Regarding the Arniez-Villena study, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza-probably the world’s leading expert on studies of this sort-and his colleagues stated the following, “Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”37 Greeks clustered with other European populations on genetic maps, far from the aggregation of North African and sub-Saharan groups.’- The Gene Wars: Diana Muir Appelbaum ; Paul S. Appelbaum

More misinformation by Jahdey:
“You may want to posture like you are debating with me, but you cannot debate the European Medical Genetics Journal which provided one of the sources for the thesis that African HBS Haplotype 19 is also found in Greeks.”

Those are the same European Medical Genetics Journals that you misinterpret for your personal agendas. Sickle-Cell found in the Southern Europe has its origins in the Near East, not tropical Africa:
“One of the two most frequent β-thalassaemia mutations in Mediterranean populations today, the B + IVS nt 110 mutation (G→A), which occurs in areas of Greek colonization in Italy, attains its highest frequencies today in eastern Mediterranean countries. It is very common in Greece, and is also associated with a high level of haplotype diversity in Turkey.72 Consequently, Italian scientists suggested that this particular mutation originated in Greece or Anatolia and was spread westwards to Italy by Greek colonization from the eighth century BC onwards.73″- A Cao, M Gossens, and M Pirastu, ‘β-thalassaemia mutations in Mediterranean populations’, Br. J. Haematology,

Misinformed Jahdey still can’t comprehend what is being said in that passage by Dr. Graham Sergeant:
‘Below I post the entire passage to demonstrate what a low life lieing skunk racist you really are:
“Studies of the structure of DNA surrounding the beta globin locus reveal that the sickle cell gene is associated with several DNA structures probably representing DIFFERENT ANCESTRAL POPULATIONS. The most likely interpretation is that the sickle cell mutation is a relatively recent occurrence that has occurred independently in several different populations. Falciparum malaria then acted as a selective factor, increasing the prevalence of the gene because people inheriting the sickle cell gene from one parent and a gene for normal adult hemoglobin from the other parent (sickle cell trait) were less likely to die from malaria and so more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Over the generations, the sickle cell trait has therefore reached high frequencies in malarious areas. The factor in common to the distribution of the sickle cell gene is therefore malaria and not African ancestry……”

How pathetic. That passage debunks your myth about African origins for sickle cell found through out the world and you continue to misinterpret its meaning. It states very clearly that the beta globin locus represents DIFFERENT ANCESTRAL POPULATIONS(do you even know what these three words mean? They clearly debunk your fallacies about sickle-cell coming from ONE & THE SAME ancestral origins). Goes on to state: “The most likely interpretation is that the sickle cell mutation is a relatively recent occurrence that has occurred INDEPENDENTLY in several DIFFERENT populations.” Look up the words “OCCURED” and “INDEPENDENTLY” and “several DIFFERENT populations” mean since you don’t have a clue.

Jahdey said
on February 26, 2008 Dave

You are an unmitigated ignoramus.

Listen to your self:

Dave squeaks:
Graham R. Serjeant very clearly states the GENE for sickle-cell is MALARIA and not AFRICAN ANCESTRY, proven you wrong once again:

JAHDEY HELPS OUT:
Sickle cell is not caused by malaria Dave. Sickle cell is not a virus. Mosquitos do not give sickle cell, mosquitos only carry malaria parasites.

Sickle cell gene is a DNA protein found on the chromosomes. Those genes cause sickle cell.

Dave Squeaks more nonsense:
The Sickle Cell GENE is therefore MALARIA and not AFRICAN ANCESTRY.

JAHDEY HELPS OUT:
Dave, I am embarrassed for you. Sickle cell gene is not malaria. Malaria is a disease caused by parasites (malaria plasmodium). Sickle cell gene is part of the human DNA which codes for red blood cells. Now, it is clear I am arguing with a grade 5 drop-out.

More Dave garbarge:
Even the Mosquitos who brought sickle-cell disorder to Southern Europe are not of tropical African origins:

JAHDEY HELPS OUT:
Dave, I am embarrassed for you. Sickle cell gene is not malaria. Malaria is a disease caused by parasites (malaria plasmodium). Sickle cell gene is part of the human DNA which codes for red blood cells. Now, it is clear I am arguing with a grade 5 drop-out.

Wretched Dave unmasks himself:
Sickle-Cell found in the Southern Europe has its origins in the Near East, not tropical Africa:
“One of the two most frequent β-thalassaemia mutations in Mediterranean populations today, the B + IVS nt 110 mutation (G→A), which occurs in areas of Greek colonization in Italy, attains its highest frequencies today in eastern Mediterranean countries.

JAHDEY CRIES FOR DAVE’S STUPENDOUS IGNORANCE:
No Boy, Sickle cell gene haplotype 19 originates from West Africa. Sickle cell has four origins, one in India, and three in Africa. The sickle cell gene in Greece comes from Africa.

But most tragically, Dave begins to talk of Thalassemia. Thalassemia is not sickle cell. Thalassemia is a disease cause by thalassemia genes. Whereas, sickle cell is caused by sickle cell genes. Two different things, two different diseases…this very conflation exposes you as some wretched wanna be scholar.

That is it for you now. I have no more time for a someone who lacks the foundation and depth on a topic too senior for him.

Go learn to read, write and spell. Go back to Grade 5 boy, hurry, before everyone begins to laugh at you…

Goodbye Dave aka Mr.”Sickle cell is malaria” ….LOL!!! I trust you will not start running off your ignorant hogwash next time without doing sufficient research.

Goo

Jahdey said
on February 26, 2008 Dave did Dr. Graves make this claim in a peer reviewed journal like European Genetics Journal or American Genetics Journal? If so, kindly provide us with the journal citations:

Dave Wrongs himself again:
“Contrary to popular belief, sickle cell anemia is not a black disease nor did it originate in West Africa. The gene responsible for sickle cell provides protection against malaria, so it is present wherever we find malaria. That includes Southern Europe, Yemen, India, East and West Africa and the Middle East, where it originated. The only reason we think of it as a black disease in America is because the slaves came from West Africa. If the slaves who worked the cotton fields of America had come from Yemen or Southern European, then we would have seen it as a Yemeni or a Southern European disease.-Joseph Graves, Ph.D.of Evolutionary Biology

This is what Graves stated actually:

Contrary to popular belief, sickle cell anemia is not a black disease nor did it originate in West Africa. The gene responsible for sickle cell provides protection against malaria, so it is present wherever we find malaria. That includes Greece, Yemen, India, East and West Africa and the

Middle East, where it originated. The only reason we think of it as a black disease in America is because the slaves came from West Africa. If the slaves who worked the cotton fields of America had come from Yemen or Greece, then we would have seen it as a Yemeni or a Greek disease.

SCIENTIFIC PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS STATE:

The origin of the mutation that led to the sickle cell gene was initially thought to be in the Arabian peninsula, spreading to Asia and Africa. It is now known, from evaluation of chromosome structures, that there have been at least four independent mutational events, three in Africa and a fourth in either Saudi Arabia or central India. See Desai, D. V.; Hiren Dhanani (2004). “Sickle Cell Disease: History And Origin”. The Internet Journal of Haematology 1 (2). ISSN 1540-2649.

JAHDEY SPEAKS:

But ofcourse the fact that sickle cell has four independent occurence proves that it is not a Black disease and noone said it was a black disease. Genes that code for colour is the melanin.

Sickle cell affects Indians, Greeks, West Africans, Arabs, so how could it be a Black disease.

But Haplotype HBS 19 ( a very definite haplotype) which codes for sickle cell genes first arose in Africa. This Haplotype 19 has been identified in Greeks proving that Haplotype 19 made its way from Africa to Greece.

The other haplotypes of sickle cell are: Indian haplotype; Cameroon Haplotype; Senegal Haplotype, and the Nigerian Haplotype 19 (aka Benin haplotype).

Setting up a straw man’s argument is like hiding your head in the sand. Don’t pursue a point no-one made here. You began arguments about your black disease or not. Pinks like you sometimes have sickle cell genes but an analysis of its mutation will demonstrate if it is from India or Africa.

The origin of the mutation that led to the sickle cell gene was initially thought to be in the Arabian peninsula, spreading to Asia and Africa. It is now known, from evaluation of chromosome structures, that there have been at least four independent mutational events, three in Africa and a fourth in either Saudi Arabia or central India. See Desai, D. V.; Hiren Dhanani (2004). “Sickle Cell Disease: History And Origin”. The Internet Journal of Haematology 1 (2). ISSN 1540-2649.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease

It has been conclusively demonstrated that HbS in Greece is mostly haplotype #19 (the one that originated in Benin, Nigeria West Africa). See, Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas P.; The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Unit for Prenatal Diagnosis, Laikon Hospital, Athens, Greece.

What is the claim here:

Haplotype 19 is a gene that codes for the red blood cell.

HAPLOTYPE 19 originates from Africa – Benin Nigeria. Why, because it is most prevalent there…standard method for deducing a gene’s origin.

Haplotype 19 is found in thousands of Greeks (in addition to other haplogroups that Greeks share in similarity with Africans)

And thanks for finally admitting that you are neither GREEK nor African, but a meddlesome Pinkie from Northwest jealous of the antiquated histories of Black and Brown peoples of Africa and Europe. You cannot lie about origins cause we told you already where you come from:

The cold caves of Europe.

Dave said
on February 26, 2008 Jahdey I’m embarrassed for you that by the mere fact that you can’t comprehend what is being spelled out for anyone with some intelligence to understood. Jahdey I’m embarrassed for you that by the mere fact that you can’t comprehend what is being spelled out for anyone with some intelligence to understood.
You make it clear to everyone that you don’t understand what the Medical Genetics Journals are stating because you make so little sense in your arguments. Over millennia, scattered groups developed distinct, they adaptive traits such as skin color and facial characteristics, they even produce maladies such as sickle-cell anemia. Different populations often take advantage of different alleles, which occur at random, to respond to evolutionary pressure, as has happened in the emergence of genetic defenses against malaria(sickle-cell) which are different in Mediterranean populations from those found in African populations. Its too bad you can’t comprehend simple human evolution concept.

Let me put this to you in more simpler terms given you low level of comprehensive skills: Those pseudo studies you keep referencing such as that by Arniez-Villena from where the Tunisian study took its data, used a tissue antigen gene (HLA) for their study, not the highly regarded mtDNA or Y-chromosome markers. Autosomal DNA that is subject to population selection should never be used for making inferences about population ancestry. The use of this gene marker for inferring population history has been subsequently highly criticised by reputable genetic researchers (eg. L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza). Those pseudo studies were trying to falsely assert that Greek tissue antigen genes were like the sub-Saharan African tissue antigen genes, and quite unlike the tissue antigen genes found in Europeans, which is contrary to what all reputable genetic researchers have shown in their studies(i.e. that Greeks cluster with Europeans & other Caucasian populations and farther from tropical African populations). The authors of the paper also make some very naïve claims about the history of the populations they are talking about. Unfortunately, this faulty research has subsequently been used by groups and individuals(from Afrocentric to Supremacists and Nationalist interest groups) as “evidence” for their own political agendas, all of which have some very bizarre claims. The actual mtDNA and Y-chromosome data show that Greek haplotype frequencies are typically Mediterranean/Caucasian. Greek mtDNA haplotypes are the same as those found in typical European and Near Eastern populations as proven by the date found in the Supplementary data from Richards et al. (2000)-“tracing founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool” Overall the Greek Y-chromosome haplotype frequencies are roughly intermediate between typical western European populations and Near Eastern populations. Oh and here is another little tibit that you might want to make yourself familiar with: that Arniez-Villena paper from where the Tunisian study took its data from was refereed to by tissue scientists that were ignorant of the fact that the use of the marker was highly inappropriate for population studies.

Dave said
on February 26, 2008 Correction for you, ‘boy’, Greeks were never part of your ‘black/brown’ people so that makes you the worst thieve in trying to steal their identity, culture and history.

Those same SCIENTIFIC PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS STATE also state sickle-cell does not imply African heritage but your level of understanding such things is obvioulsy very low. Btw, you did not disprove anything by posting Joseph Graves, Ph.D. Evolutionary Biology who very clearly states: “Contrary to popular belief, sickle cell anemia is not a black disease nor did it originate in West Africa. The gene responsible for sickle cell provides protection against malaria, so it is present wherever we find malaria. That includes Southern Europe, Yemen, India, East and West Africa and the Middle East, where it originated. The only reason we think of it as a black disease in America is because the slaves came from West Africa.”

Jahdey said
on February 26, 2008 Dave begins to bitch and bellyache:
Greeks were never part of your ‘black/brown’ people …

JAHDEY SPEAKS: Ancient Greeks did not see themselves as pink-pale people. Greek origin mythology holds that Greeks are Africans and one can understand that when you consider the brown skin and curly hair of most real Greeks (compared to the mulatto children of Africans). See: http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/black-african-origin-of-the-ancient-greeks-part-3-by-anu-mauro/

They believed all Pink pale peoples of the Germanic tribes were Barbarians.

Greek cities were mostly centered in Africa and Near East.

It is only in this modern times when all the old certainities have been turned up side down that we hear Pinkies like you associate themselves with the Greek civilization.

Greek civilization was centered in Asia Minor, Near East, Egypt – Africa, Ethiopia – Africa, Maghreb – Africa.

There were no Greek cities in England, nor in France, nor in Sweden or Holland or Germania.

As an African descendant, I have more claims on Greece than you would ever have. Since Greeks considered themselves more kin to Africans (civilized people) than the uncivilized barbarians whom they so detested.

So, boy…now you know.

According to mis-educated David:

“The gene responsible for sickle cell provides protection against malaria, so it is present wherever we find malaria. That includes Southern Europe, Yemenites, Indians, East and West Africa and the Middle East, where it originated.”

All the people mentioned above are people of colour. Connected people with proven African ancestry. ((Moorish) Black and Mulatto Southern Europe, Black (Moorish) Yemenites, Black (Moorish) Indians, Black (Moorish) East and West Africa and the Moorish Middle East

Here is why:

Your own words:
“The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into HAPLOGROUP E THAT SPREAD to EUROPE and AFRICA……..”

Al-Jahiz:

“The Ethiopians, the Berbers, the Copts, the Nubians, the Zaghawa, the Moors, the people of Sind, the Hindus, the Qamar, the Dabila, the Chinese, and those beyond them…the islands in the seas…are full of blacks…up to Hindustan and China.”
–Al-Jahiz, Book of the Glory of the Blacks Over the Whites

Arab Yemenis/Himyarites: Black as the night and magnificient…

http://www.hansrossel.com/foto…..ye_s27.htm

http://www.hansrossel.com/foto…..ye_s25.htm

http://www.hansrossel.com/foto…..ye_s29.htm

http://www.blackjadeworld.com/

Arab Omanis: Black as the night and magnificient…

Arab Iranians (from the Ethnic Arab provinces of Iran): Black as the night and magnificient

Iranians from the Region of Bandar Abbas

Baluchistan and Sistan Province: Black as the night and magnificient

Black iranian from Chabahar Province: Black as the night and magnificient

Jadey said
on February 26, 2008 A comedy of Errors:

Dave whines on February 19, 2006 at 10:28 pm see above

There is no black African genetic link found between you black Africans and white Greeks either in modern times or ancient. Stop living in a delusional bubble of misconceptions and lies. HBS haplogroup 19 is not found in any Greeks,

February 20th, 2008 at 6:04 pm Dave eats his own vomit:

If you actually read Segearnt article and not any old misinformation found on dubious online sites you would have known that he provides sources for Sicily, NORTHERN Greece…….

Jahdey doesn’t even provide the correct sentence …but I will:

“The Benin haplotype (HBS Haplotype 19) accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa..”

Sicily,#4 = source Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41. – implications for gene flow in recent times through North Africa.

Southern Turkey,#11 = source Aluoch JR, Kilinç Y, Aksoy M, et al. Sickle cell anaemia among Eti-Turks: haematological, clinical and genetic observations. Br J Haematol 1986;64:45-55.

David aka Mr “Sickle Cell is caused by Malaria” whines:
Feb 21, 2008 at 3:41 pm:

“Everybody came out of Africa…”

Dave rants:

“The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into HAPLOGROUP E THAT SPREAD to EUROPE and AFRICA……..”

Dave’s totally flips:

….the Mosquitos … brought sickle-cell disorder to Southern Europe are not of tropical African origins…

The mouse that squeaked:
Dave squeaks:

Graham R. Serjeant very clearly states the GENE for sickle-cell is MALARIA and not AFRICAN ANCESTRY, proven you wrong once again…

The Grade five drop-out:
David Replied Feb 21, 2008 at 9:57 am:

…E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (from northern Africa to Europe and from eastern to northern Africa, respectively)…

JAHDEY SPEAKS:

Make up your mind boy. David (aka Mr.”Sicklecell is a Malaria Virus”) are you proposing or are you opposing or are you just moronic???

Dave said
on February 26, 2008 JAHDEY SPEAKS nonsense once post more dubious links again:
“Ancient Greeks did not see themselves as Pink pale people.”

David replies correctly:
Ancient Greeks view themselves as a Caucasian European people, not Black Ethiopians=a Greek word that means Burned faced(African) people.

More nonsense from JAHDEY:
“They believed all Pink pale peoples of the Germanic tribes were Barbarians.”

David’s corrections once again:
Hate to break it to you but they viewed Black Africans as black Barbarians too.

Wrong assumptions by Jahdey:
“Greek cities were mostly centered in Africa and Near East.”

David’s corrections again:
Wrong, Greek cities were not in Africa, they were in Egypt, the Near East and Eurasian regions but given you know nothing about ancient history so your false assumption do not surprise me.

Jibberish by Jahdey:
“It is only in this modern times when all the old certainities have been turned up side down that we hear Pinkies like you associate themselves with the Greek civilization.”

David’s answer:
Its revisionist Afrocentric like yourself trying to steal the history and culture of a people that you have nothing in common with which is turning everything upside.

More jibberish by Jahdey:
“Greek civilization was centered in Asia Minor, Near East, Egypt – Africa, Ethiopia – Africa, Maghreb – Africa. There were no greek cities in England, nor in France, nor in Sweden or Holland or Germania.”

Well Mr. Misinformed, Greeks never set foot in Ethiopia or Tropical Africa either. In fact the few Greeks who had any contact with black Africans they mistook for a “tribe of chimps”. That was the Greeks extent of contack with black Africans who they viewed different from themselves. There were not Greek cities in Ethiopia or tropical Africa. BTW nice try in trying to claim Maghreb as “black African” how pathetic you are.

False assumption by Jahdey:
“As an African descendant, I have more claims on Greece than you would ever have. Since Greeks considered themselves more kin to Africans (civilized people) than the uncivilized barbarians whom they so detested.”

David’s answer:
You have zero claim to Greece and Greek culture given Greeks never considered themselves a kin to Africans either in ancient times or modern times whom they called “burned faces”. They also viewed you as much as uncivilized barbarians as they did us. It is obvious you have not read any of the Greek works such as Plato, Aristotle, etc. whose theories of slavery were littered with essential anti-black prejudice ingredients that are found in both late European and Arab thought.

More jibberish by un-educated Jahdey:
“All the people mentioned above are people of colour. Connected people with proven African ancestry.”

David’s repsonse:
Sorry misinformed one but Southern Europeans, Asians and Near Easterners are not ‘people of colour’ nor do they consider themselves as black Africans or having any historic lineage to tropical Africans other then that “Out of Africa” theory which states every single human came from Africa including Northern Europeans. The out of Africa theory does not mean, as you so falsely have been claiming, that none black African people in the world have any culture or identity to you black Africans. Afrocentric like you are the worst thieves out there, trying to steal the history, culture and identity of people that you have no claim to. Not only that but you are a hypocrite, first you claim ’skin color’ does not imply ones ancestry then post all these pseudo sites that show “black” Chinese, Arabs, Berbers, Hindus, Iranians. A total hypocrite.

Dave said
on February 26, 2008 A more recent study that contradicts the fallacies posted by Jahdey yet again. The study conducted confirms that the earliest Neolithic farmers who settled in Southern Europe migrated from the Near East; these farmers lived for thousands of years in the NE, millenniums after humans started to migrate out of Africa:

Volume 72 Issue 2 Page 205-214, March 2008
The earliest Neolithic sites of Europe are located in Crete and mainland Greece. A debate persists concerning whether these farmers originated in neighboring Anatolia and the role of maritime colonization. To address these issues 171 samples were collected from areas near three known early Neolithic settlements in Greece together with 193 samples from Crete. An analysis of Y-chromosome haplogroups determined that the samples from the Greek Neolithic sites showed strong affinity to Balkan data, while Crete shows affinity with Anatolian.” – R. J. King, S. S. Özcan, T. Carter, E. KalfoÄŸlu, S. Atasoy, C. Triantaphyllidis, A. Kouvatsi, A. A. Lin, C-E. T. Chow, L. A. Zhivotovsky, M. Michalodimitrakis, P. A. Underhill (2008) Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic; *Corresponding author: Peter A. Underhill, Department of Genetics, 300 Pasteur Drive, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, CA 94305-5120, Fax: 650 725 1534. phone: 650 723-5805. E-mail: under@stanford.edu

“Haplogroup J2b-M12(Davids notes:Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago in the Near East; Haplogroup J2 is associated with the spread of agriculture from the northern Fertile Crescent, the Levant, and Anatolia) was frequent in Thessaly and Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce. Alternatively, Crete, like Anatolia showed a high frequency of J2a-M410(Davids notes:supports the theory that the Minoans of Crete were Eurasians, btw) and a low frequency of J2b-M12. This dichotomy parallels archaeobotanical evidence, specifically that while bread wheat (Triticum aestivum) is known from Neolithic Anatolia, Crete and southern Italy; it is absent from earliest Neolithic Greece. The expansion time of YSTR variation for haplogroup E3b1a2-V13, in the Peloponnese was consistent with an indigenous Mesolithic presence. In turn, two distinctive haplogroups, J2a1h-M319 and J2a1b1-M92, have demographic properties consistent with Bronze Age expansions in Crete, arguably from NW/W Anatolia and Syro-Palestine, while a later mainland (Mycenaean) contribution to Crete is indicated by relative frequencies of V13.” – R. J. King, S. S. Özcan, T. Carter, E. KalfoÄŸlu, S. Atasoy, C. Triantaphyllidis, A. Kouvatsi, A. A. Lin, C-E. T. Chow, L. A. Zhivotovsky, M. Michalodimitrakis, P. A. Underhill (2008) Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic; *Corresponding author: Peter A. Underhill, Department of Genetics, 300 Pasteur Drive, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, CA 94305-5120, Fax: 650 725 1534. phone: 650 723-5805. E-mail: under@stanford.edu

Jahdey said
on February 26, 2008 Dave’s totally flips:

….the Mosquitos … brought sickle-cell disorder to Southern Europe … not of tropical African origins…

February 20th, 2008 at 6:04 pm Dave eats his own vomit:
“If you actually read Segearnt article and not any old misinformation found on dubious online sites you would have known that he provides sources for Sicily, NORTHERN Greece…….

Jahdey doesn’t even provide the correct sentence …but I will:

“The Benin haplotype (HBS Haplotype 19) accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa..”

Sicily,#4 = source Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41. – implications for gene flow in recent times through North Africa.”

JAHDEY SPEAKS: Whatever David. Whatever…LOL…itz the mosquitoes, they are bugging your head crazy….

Dave said
on February 27, 2008 Typical useless dribble of Mr. Misinformation Jahdey to misquote what the medical journals state. As usual since he didn’t bother to read all of the study from top to bottom he can’t understand the simple fact that what those studies say is that HbS haplotype found in less then 10 percent of some European populations does not mean that ten percent have sub-Saharan ancestry; what that means is it may simply be that many of those lacking the trait in the past died without progeny due to malaria since none of those European subjects who test for the trait do not carry any of the haplotypes that are typical markers for tropical Africans. HIV is also supposed to have its origins in Africa, your going to sit there and tell us all humans around the world who have the virus are of sub-Saharan ancestry? Pathetic. And don’t you dare say HIV isn’t a genetic virus given just like sickle-cell it can be passed down from parent to child.

Orphic Hymn said
on April 7, 2008 DNA sheds light on Minoans

Crete’s fabled Minoan civilization was built by people from Anatolia, according to a new study by Greek and foreign scientists that disputes an earlier theory that said the Minoans’ forefathers had come from Africa.

The new study – a collaboration by experts in Greece, the USA, Canada, Russia and Turkey – drew its conclusions from the DNA analysis of 193 men from Crete and another 171 from former neolithic colonies in central and northern Greece.

The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.

The DNA analysis indicates that the arrival of neolithic man in Greece from Anatolia coincided with the social and cultural upsurge that led to the birth of the Minoan civilization, Constantinos Triantafyllidis of Thessaloniki’s Aristotle University told Kathimerini.

“Until now we only had the archaeological evidence – now we have genetic data too and we can date the DNA,” he said.

Jahdey said
on April 8, 2008 Ophesus squeaks: The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal….etc etc…

Jahdey Speaks:

Ophesus, you are such a boor. Ancient Africa extended all the way to ancient Anatolia. Which is why the Arabs declare that the first man to build a civilization on the Mesopotamia was Nimrod the Cushite…the African!

Syria, Turkey and Iraq have a very high percentage of African genes such as Y-Haplogroup E3A, E3B; HLA antigen; and autosomnal sickle cell haplotype 19 from Nigeria Africa. This is in addition to the profusion of African mtDNA genetic material, such as M1 etc. There is so much Afro blood in Anatolia and the Near East that right now, genetists agree that the ancient residents of these places were African Diaspora.

You need to keep your research holistic. Not running around with piece meal bits of ignorance.

Jahdey

BTW Please post a link for your cut and paste next time.

Dave said
on April 8, 2008 Incorrect as usual is Jahdey.

*Published Y-chromosome data showed almost all compound haplotypes found in Europe were found in smaller Near Eastern samples

*Similar result with mtDNA haplogrp J (Paleolithic but introduced to Europe during Neolithic)

*Therefore, these groups differentiated in the Near East then migrated into Europe.

*NEOLITHIC FARMERS!! Not black Africans.

Jahdey said
on April 8, 2008 Pink Dave

No African is physically black. Black is a cultural designation not skin colour. Africans are dark brown in colour. You and your people are pink in colour. Take note of that and correct your psuedo racist presumptions.

Besides, you are babbling as usual. Your point is not clear. If by your quotation you mean to make a citation then cite the Journal or book or web-site. We will take you to the cleaners as usual..be my guest.

Jahdey

Dave said
on April 8, 2008 Incorrect Jahdey as usual trying to claim the world’s populations as “sub-Saharan black Africans” based on nothing but dribble. No geneticists has ever claimed the ancient residents of the Middle East as “African Diaspora”. That only exists in the minds of Afrocentric.

Jahdey said
on April 9, 2008 David aka Mr “Sickle Cell is caused by Malaria virus” whines:
Feb 21, 2008 at 3:41 pm:

….Everybody came out of Africa…”

# Dave repudiates his claim on April 8th, 2008 at 7:38 pm:

….Jahdey as usual trying to claim the world’s populations as “sub-Saharan black Africans” based on nothing but dribble.

Jahdey Speaks

Pink Davey, you once claimed that everyone come from Africa on Feb 21, 2008 at 3:41 pm. Original Africans will always be a dark brown people due to the glorious hot Sun of Africa which burns pinkeys to death.

I told you that maybe lots of people are Africans in origin but you are one pink ass from the pale cold caves of the Russian Steeps. Have you confirmed your origin yet?

Why have you got pink skin whereas the rest of the world is light brown to dark brown? Even the Inuits who lived longer than your ancestors in the cold regions of the world are brown.

Why are you so pink and angry???

Food for thought!

Jahdey

Dave said
on April 9, 2008 Jahdey ‘who is clueless on what sickle cell is’ speaks nonsense once again:

What you told me and what are the facts are two different things. Your fallacies can be seen for what they are: pseudo science fiction. A person’s pigmentation does not mean everyone who is ‘dark’ has sub-Saharan African origins. Your knowledge in genetic is laughable. Humans have evolved many times over since their emergence from Africa, so trying to claim populations in the world who you claim are ‘dark’ as ‘original Africans’ is ridiculous on your part. Russian Steeps is not is not only region that people have pink skin, all of Europeans do as do many Eurasians and Orientals have pale skin. I suggest you stop trying to turn people who are not Africans in origin from around the wold into “Africans” just so you can claim a part of their historic identity.

Jahdey said
on April 9, 2008 Dave aka “Mr Sickle cell is caused by Malaria virus”

Africa south of the Sahara was only occupied by the so called Bantus (those whom you target your hate) starting from 1000 BC. Prior to that only the San and the Khoi Khoi lived there. The so called Bantus (your so called sub-saharans) acutally derive from the Northern and central saharan regions. The great Bantu migrations which commenced around 1000 BC saw the settling of that area. This again exposes your limited knowledge, your uncouth nastiness and the pathetic situation of your world view. Go read about the great Bantu migrations…search google for that subject and enrich your empty mind with the precious teachings you are getting from Jahdey.

BTW you did not answer my question.

Why have you got pink skin whereas the rest of the world is light brown to dark brown? Even the Inuits who lived longer than your ancestors in the cold regions of the world are brown.

Why are you so pink and angry???

Food for thought!

Jahdey

Dave said
on April 9, 2008 Jahdey “Mr. delusional when it comes to Sickle cell”

Same reason as to why all Europeans, most Eurasians and Orientals have pink pale skin. In fact pale skin is the common factor in all Europeans from North to South and East to West. But you wouldn’t know that or why, given your naive attempt at trying to turn every civilization into “African” even the ones who aren’t.

I suggest you look at the countries considered part of Sub-Sahara. ;-p
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SubSaharanAfrica.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa#List_of_countries

So now you are trying to turn the Inuits into “Africans”? LOL! The nonsense never stops with you.

A Black Greco said
on April 9, 2008 How sad it still is, that we continue to be so narrow-minded and misguided. The information we seek is clearly written in history and the sciences. We as a human race have a long way to go when it comes to understanding where we come from, and how we all connect. It is the bigotry that prevents us from realizing that our ethnic beginnings are all tied together. My lineage goes as far back as Roman occupied Greece and Egypt. My ancestors can be traced to a long royal line that merged with African, Portuguese, India and English. Please read your history before spouting meanness. We have enough of that already in the world.

Dave said
on April 9, 2008 Pseudo science again. Direct ancestor lineage goes back only a few hundred years, not THOUSANDS of years. No genetic scientist can trace family genealogical lineage over two thousands years, but nice try. Next you’ll be telling us you are related to Jesus. LOL! All Europeans(Greeks, English, Italians, French, Germans, etc.) are pale skin ‘whites’, not blacks.

Jahdey said
on April 9, 2008 Dave

You are not white like a crayon colour. You are pink.

According to Nina Jablonski (your own blood European sister), The evolution of human skin coloration, 2000: The human skin colour ranges from Dark brown skin to tan to light(pink/yellow).

Why is that simple fact so hard for you to admit. Go look at your mirror again before you come back to answer.

Your skin colour is pink or pinkish…true or false?

Dave said
on April 9, 2008 What is true is that mine and every other European’s(Greeks, English, Italians, French, Germans, etc.) persons out there skin tone is light/pale or ‘pink/yellow’. So whatever your supposed point was supposed to be here is once more moot.

Jahdey said
on April 9, 2008 No Dave, the Greeks and the Sicilians are light brown to dark brown in pigmentation.

Most English who trace their lines to either the anglo-saxon conquest or the viking invasions are pink. Germanics are pink also as the nordic French.

Southern French people are brown to dark brown.

You need to go find out from your pink ancestor how come you are so different from every other person on earth. Thatz what I mean.

Where are you from? Why are you the only pink ones? Why are you so pink with rage??

Dave said
on April 9, 2008 You are as always wrong again Jahdey.

Greeks, French and Italians are light skin people not dark brown like you; they are genetically related to and their phenotypes are that of those found in other Caucasian Europeans. Oh wait I know they only let light skin people into their all MANDATORY militaries, right. Their militaries are made up from their WHOLE general populations & from ALL their regions(north, south, east and west). Even their dark haired individuals have pale skin when not in the sun. I suggest you stop mistaken tans on people as their natural skin color.


RACIAL GROUPINGS MATCH GENETIC PROFILES, STANFORD STUDY FINDS – Stanford University Medical Center:
“When the team further analyzed each of the four clusters, they found two distinct sub-groups within the East Asian genetic cluster. These two groups correlated with people who identified themselves as Chinese and Japanese. None of the other genetic groups could be broken down into smaller sub-sections. THIS SUGGESTS THAT THERE ISN’T ENOUGH GENETIC DIFFERENCE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE ANCESTRY FROM NORTHERN EUROPE VERSUS SOUTHERN EUROPE, for example.”
http://med.stanford.edu/news_releases/2005/january/racial-data.htm

I suggest you go find your brown ancestors and stop trying to turn historic ancient European light skin populations into ‘Africans’ when they are not.

Dave said
on April 9, 2008 Only a blind person would mistake their phenotypes for anything but Caucasian light skin individuals.



Jahdey said
on April 10, 2008 Dave

I repeat my query:

Are you pink or white? Look in the mirror before you answer!!!

Jahdey

Dave said
on April 10, 2008 I’m the same color as all Europeans(Greeks, English, Italians, French, Germans, etc.) are. ;p

Jahdey said
on April 10, 2008 Hehehehe

I am embarrassed for you!

You who would vituperate about the “black” skin of brown-skinned Africans are now tongue tied to physically described your self.

I thought you “was” white. LOL

Go ahead, be bold and tell me your real colour pigmentation.

David…are you a white or a pink man?

Jahdey

Dave said
on April 10, 2008 The day you embarrass anyone, Jahdey, is the day cows fly over the moon.

Since you can’t comprehend simple answers, again I am the same color and phenotypes as all other Europeans (Greeks, English, Italians, French, Germans, etc.) are pale/light skin tone = ‘white’.

African phenotypes are “dark brown” = ‘black’. ;p

Jahdey said
on April 10, 2008 Dave you are pink because there is no colour like “light” so to speak.

Don’t you dare call your arse white again here cause now you have been taught a lesson in skin colour pigmentation.

Northern Europeans are all pinkish in colour. I do not want to dishonour you by suggesting that you are yellow.

So be PROUD of your COLOUR Mister Dave aka “Mr. Sickle Cell is caused by Malaria Parasite”. PINK!

Dave said
on April 10, 2008 Jahdey who can’t comprehend the fact that Sickle Cell is not some ‘genetic race’ marker.

I am proud of my “PINK” skin(the politically correct term used by some for obvious reasons) that is found in ALL European people (Greeks, English, Italians, French, Germans, etc.) alike. Europeans have the same phenotypes, such as facial features & light/pale coloring, including SOUTHERN Europeans, not just Northern Europeans, as you so incorrectly claimed. Try to pick out the Greeks from the Americans, Germans, Czech, and Austrians from the clip below if you can…. ;p

More “PINK” Greeks who are similar genetically, culturally etc. to all European people, not “brown Africans”. ;p




For a person to teach something s/he much be knowledgeable in the facts and its been established you are not.

Jahdey said
on April 10, 2008 Dave

Where are you writing from? Seriously, tell me the country you are in? I am in North America, are you there too or in Europe?

Jahdey

Dave said
on April 10, 2008 Currently in the States but I lived half of the year in Europe.

Dave said
on April 10, 2008 “I lived half of the year in Europe”

Sorry that should read: I LIVE half of the year over in Europe.

Jahdey said
on April 11, 2008 Fine. Keep your eyes open for the Moorish Science Temple guys. You may be interested to hear what they have to say. They are numerous in the States. I am in Canada currently, but I also live in the States.

All said Dave, you do not feel like a bad guy. You sound somewhat young though.

Keep on searching and questioning. If you are sincere you will see the answer…

Jahdey

K said
on May 4, 2008 Guys all this conversation is pointless.Did you read what Cavalli wrote?We should take into account anthropology and historical data to interpret any findings in genetics.Yes,the DNA findings confirm what is already known.There is the same DNA all over mediteranean coast,in Greece,Sicily,south Italy,west Turkey, etc because there lived Greeks.They had colonies all along the coast.All the genetic studies will show the same.
The DNA of Greeks inside the cuntry,far from coast is different because there lived mostly Slavs,Albaninas etc.There is high R1a haplotype frequency in Greece,about 12% due to slavic population.Everything is clear.

What we need?We need studies on ancient Greek skeleton DNAs,both mt and Y and then comparison to DNA of modern Greeks.Since we lack these studies,everything else is just an assumption.(maybe strong indication,however an assumption).
For example similar studies showed genetic similarity between ancient Phoinices and today’s Lebanese who live in the same region.Let’s see what the same kind of study will show for Greece.

Of course all these problems are highly prejudiced and have consequences regarding racial issues,so an independant,objective study is what needed and very difficult to achieve,sth not sponsored by any state or racial organization.
Let’s see if people are brave enough to let such a study develop in Greece and the whole balkan region.Corpses will tell the truth.

Dave said
on May 7, 2008 Ok for one where did you get the false assumption that ancient Greek skeleton DNAs,both mt and Y and then comparison to DNA of modern Greeks were not done? Do you know how many such studies have been conducted which proves ancient Greeks and modern Greeks not only are the same BUT part of the Caucasian cluster? Obviously not when you make such false statements. Modern studies have constructed Greek genetic trees revealing a strong degree of homogeneity between Greeks from different geographical locations. Median networks revealed that most of the Greek haplotypes are clustered to the five known haplogroups and that a number of haplotypes are shared among Greeks and other European and Eurasian populations. Within the loci studied, the genetic composition of the Greeks indicates a significantly low level of heterogeneity compared with other European populations. Modern scholars and scientists have supported the notion that there is a racial connection to the ancient Greeks. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, and Alberto Piazza, have found evidence of a genetic connection between the ancient and modern Greeks.[79]

Welcome to Rasta Livewire (RL). Rasta Livewire is a leading blog on Rastafarian that provides indepth and varying viewpoints from Rastas in Africa and African Diaspora. To help prevent spam, all comments are

“THE BLACK,FIRST EUROPEANS: AFRICAN SLAVS,AFRICAN CELTS-EDITED BY OGU EJI EFO ANNU-FROM AFRICANRESOURCE.COM

May 30, 2009

from african resource.com

The Black (First) Europeans: African Slavs, African Celts – Edited by Ogu Eji Ofo Annu
The Black (First) Europeans: African Slavs, African Celts

Compiled and Edited by Ogu Eji Ofo Annu

April 14, 2008

Reconstructing the phylogeny of African
mitochondrial DNA lineages in Slavs

To elucidate the origin of African-specific mtDNA lineages, revealed previously in Slavonic populations (at frequency of about 0.4%), we completely sequenced eight African genomes belonging to haplogroups L1b, L2a, L3b, L3d and M1 gathered from Russians, Czechs, Slovaks and Poles. Results of phylogeographic analysis suggest that at least part of the African mtDNA lineages found in Slavs (such as L1b, L3b1, L3d) appears to be of West African origin, testifying to an opportunity of their occurrence as a result of migrations to Eastern Europe through Iberia. However, a prehistoric introgression of African mtDNA lineages into Eastern Europe (approximately 10 000 years ago) seems to be probable only for Europeanspecific subclade L2a1a, defined by coding region mutations at positions 6722 and 12903 and detected in Czechs and Slovaks. Further studies of the nature of African admixture in gene pools of Europeans require the essential enlargement of databases of African complete mitochondrial genomes. See: Boris A Malyarchuk et. al “Reconstructing the phylogeny of African mitochondrial DNA lineages in Slavs,” European Journal of Human Genetics 9 April 2008;

Genetic Distance

However of all the non-African populations, Europeans are most closely related to Africans. As the genetic distance from Africa to Europe (16.6) is shorter than the genetic distance from Africa to East Asia (20.6) and even much shorter than the Genetic distance from Africa to Australia. Cavalli-Sforza proposes that the simplest explanation for this short genetic distance is that substantial gene exchange has taken place between the nearby continents. Cavalli-Sforza also proposes that both Asian and African populations contributed to the settlement of Europe which began 40 000 years ago. The overall contributions from Asia and Africa were estimated to be around two-thirds and one-third, respectively. Europe has a genetic variation in general of about a third of that of other continents. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

Neolithic Farmers

It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. … The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it. See: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/103/1/242

Bohemia

“In its former name, Csechkoslovakia, is preserved the racial roots, Slav. Two countries were formed from the breakup of that country: Slovakia, and the Csech Republic; it’s identity now lost in the new appelation.

But, both hide the more ancient and more original name of Csechkoslovakia which was Bohemia. Bohemia the name given the land by the incursive Germanic tribes who found African (by phenotype) Celts calling themselves the Boii. And, from that tribal name the land they lived on was called by the Germans, Bohemia.

In its original, earliest, and longest phase (Africans were there from paleolithic times), it was African. See Marc Washington: @ http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-800-00-18.html; http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/05-09-100-00-01.html

You are reading Rasta Livewire. For all things Africa, visit AfricaResource: The Place for Africa on the Net.

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Posted in Articles, Prophet, Rastas.

By Don Jaide April 27, 2008

4 Responses
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Dathi Mac Ghille Chulainn said
on April 28, 2008 I am an Irish Canadian, I have been to the Motherland five times and I have always felt that Ireland is very closely related to Africa. Do you know the story about Scota, daughter of Pharaoh Nectanebo?

terrell ali bey said
on August 6, 2008 you are right ,may you share the reality with the people,she is an egyption princess who went to southern ireland 3500 4000 years ago.,when they tell they coded story of st patrick kicking out the snakes in ireland the snakes were the moors in reality,in legend they said snakes.

terrell ali bey said
on August 6, 2008 http://indigo.ie~marrya/scota.html …………………..this should help everyone overstand scota,an how she was killed.its good reading .if you dont get it just put it in the search.peace to brother jahdey

Dana said
on August 29, 2008 I had also read somewhere that her name has something to do with the name of the Goddess Sekhet or Sekhmat.

When early Brits said black Irish it was apparently literal. It did not mean “Spaniard” or “tanned” as some American Irish like to say. The same goes for Scotland’s early blacks. I found this passage in J. A Rogers book, NATURE KNOWS NO COLOR LINE, published 1952.

“MacRitchie adds that ‘the legends and the history of the Scottish highlands are both witnesses to the existence of a purely black people there.’ Boswell and Dr. Johnson saw descendants of these black people when they visited Scotland. In his “Journey to the Hebrides, September 1, 1773, Boswell wrote of one clan, the McCraes, ’some were as black and wild in their appearance as any American savages, whatsoever.’ Martin who had visited these Western Islands eighty years before Boswell said of the people of Jura, “black of complexion ,’ of Islay, ‘generally black’. and of Arran, ‘generally brown and some of a black complexion. ”

The quote from David MacRitchie came from the book, Ancient and Modern Britons, published in 1926. MacRitchie a British archeologist also said “So late as the tenth century three of these provinces were wholly black and the supreme ruler of them became for a time the paramount king of Transmarine Scotland…….We know as ah historical fact tha nigher El Dubh has lived and reigned over certain black divisions of our islands – and probably white divisions also – and that a race known as the sons the Black succeded him in history….. p. 32. This is on page 70 of Roger’s book.

The name Douglass is supposedly derived from the word Dubh – as in Dublin?!

The quote from Boswell according to the book is from the book, WESTERN ISLANDS OF SCOTLAND, a 1934 reprint of edition from the year 1703, see pp. 236, 272.

A BLACK ACTION MAYOR BROTHER C0RY BOOKER REDUCES CRIME BY %40 IN NEWARK,NEW JERSEY IN 3 YEARS!-ANOTHER OBAMA-LIKE MIRACLE WORKER FROM GOD!-FROM THEDAILYBEAST.COM

May 30, 2009

THE DYNAMIC BLACK MAYOR CORY BOOKER

THE DYNAMIC BLACK MAYOR CORY BOOKER

from thedailybeast.com

Blogs and StoriesObama’s Crime Czar?
by Lloyd Grove
Newark Mayor Cory Booker is now advising the White House on law-and-order policy. The Daily Beast’s Lloyd Grove sits down with him to discuss his nonstop job, Al Sharpton, and his romantic life.

Long before he swept into office three years ago as the scourge of corruption and urban blight—and years before anyone outside of Illinois had even heard of Barack Obama—Newark Mayor Cory Booker was already a national figure. Young, black and superbly credentialed—Stanford, Yale Law, and a football star to boot—Booker has taken on one of America’s toughest cities and appears to be winning: Two weeks ago, The Daily Beast has learned, Special Adviser to the President Valerie Jarrett invited Booker to Washington so he could explain why Newark’s crime rate was falling while it was rising in other big cities.

“It was flattering that the president’s office was recognizing that something’s happening in Newark—not just by a little bit, not a one-year fluke, but now closing in on three years of continuous decline [in crime].”

His first (unsuccessful) campaign for mayor in 2002, against the ruthless political machine of longtime mayor Sharpe James, became the subject of a riveting documentary, Street Fight, which was produced by Rory Kennedy and nominated for an Academy Award. The film portrayed Booker as a courageous reformer in a city plagued by crime, both violent and political, and announced the arrival of a new star on the American scene. Among the celebs who have climbed aboard the Booker bandwagon and given money to his campaigns and philanthropic projects are Steven Spielberg, Barbra Streisand, Jon Bon Jovi, and Oprah Winfrey—who introduced the rising Jerseyite to Obama.

Today the 73-year-old Sharpe James is in jail, serving a 27-month sentence on a corruption conviction, and his successor, at age 40, is the prince of a still-troubled city—presiding over dropping crime rates but also economic hardship and budget shortfalls. On Tuesday, Booker talked to The Daily Beast about crime, race—and his love life.

Highlights include:

• On lowering crime: “The lowest murder rate in the city’s history was 1957. We’re on track right now to beat that all-time record.”

• On race: “The last thing I want is for America to transcend race. I think this culture is great because it has a rich black, Latino, Irish, Jewish culture, and so forth.”

• On stealing business from Bloomberg: “I’m trying to get businesses from anywhere—literally from China to other New Jersey cities.”

• On dating: “I need to find the woman that will be tolerant of me, and that’s a very tall order.”

• On Gayle King: “She’s a great friend. She jokes on her radio show all the time that she’s the unofficial first lady of the city of Newark, a title I’ll happily give her. But there’s nothing romantic.”

Q: You’re two years and 10 months into your first term. The next election will be May 9, 2010. What’s the biggest thing you’ve learned so far as mayor of Newark?

A: I have to be blunt. So many people were literally lining up to tell me what I couldn’t do as mayor and to control and lower my expectations that a lot of my optimism and idealism will be ground down by the job when I face the realities. I have to say, I’m more hopeful and optimistic about what is possible in this job, and in a larger sense in our country, than ever before. So many things people told me we couldn’t do for one reason or another, we’re actually doing. I think the biggest challenge to us as Americans is lack of moral imagination about what’s possible. We too often resign ourselves. I’m saying that not to overlook the fact that we’re in the midst of tremendous challenges. This economy is really hurting the city. We have an unemployment rate that has reached 13 percent. We have probably about 300,000 citizens in Newark. We have foreclosure challenges, the city budget’s in shambles. But what we’ve been able to do is, as they say, “find a way out of no way.”

Q: I want to talk to you about crime.

A: Crime was the big issue when I was elected. One of the best criminologists in the country told me, “If you lower the murder rate 5 to 7 percent that’s miraculous,” and sort of saying, anything beyond that is basically impossible. Here we are now, down about 40 percent on shootings and murders from the time I took office.

Q: You and your police chief were recently crowing about having only—only—14 murders in the first four months of 2009. That’s still a high murder rate.

A: Look, we’re right now on track to have the lowest number of recorded murders for any year in history in Newark. The lowest murder rate in the city’s history was 1957. We’re on track right now to beat that all-time record.

Q: You were warned against setting impossible benchmarks for yourself, and you did it anyway. What’s wrong with you?

A: You know what? I haven’t been one to believe that conventional wisdom should be uniformly followed. Two weeks ago, Special Adviser to the President Valerie Jarrett called us down to Washington, D.C. I was sort of surprised. She wanted to talk about why Chicago’s crime rate is going up, New Haven [Connecticut] is going up, a lot of other cities going up right now, but Newark is so dramatically going down. It was flattering that the president’s office was recognizing that something’s happening in Newark—not just by a little bit, not a one-year fluke, but now closing in on three years of continuous decline.

Q: What did you tell Ms. Jarrett?

A: The first thing is to understand that there’s no one strategy. If there’s one thing to do, then everybody would be doing it. It really is a collection of strategies. One is just managing your department with a real clear focus in mandate, so that everything falls in line in service to the goals that you have. So we had ridiculous stuff—detectives in our gang unit were working Monday through Friday 9 to 5, by union contract. Well, you know what? Gangs don’t work Monday through Friday 9 to 5, so we had to work to get the right officers on during the right time. In fact, we have three shifts generally of policing, an 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., which is your daytime shift, and then two nighttime shifts, 4 to 12, and 12 to 8. We had two-thirds of our officers—that is, 66 percent—who were on during the daytime shift, when most crime was happening at night.

Q: By the way, I hear sirens in the background.

A: Yeah, but if you get to be a mayor in a big city, you’ll be able to distinguish between police sirens and ambulance sirens. When I hear an ambulance siren—unfortunately—this sounds so morbid, but you always send up a prayer because you know they’re either rushing to pick somebody up or taking somebody to the hospital. For police sirens, you check your BlackBerry real quick, to make sure nothing serious is happening. That was an ambulance siren.

Q: OK, let’s talk about the culture of the Newark Police Department. You know better than anyone that it was a corrupt institution. They were actually the political shock troops for Sharpe James.

A: I don’t want to say that the entire institution is corrupt to its core. I think it’s also how you define corruption. I think it’s corruption that the city was spending millions of dollars doing some things, yet their police department didn’t even have laptops or computers. They were working on typewriters that belonged in the Smithsonian.

Q: I have to think a lot of people still working the department were part of that corruption. I know you don’t want to tar everyone with the same broad brush. But how do you change the culture there?

A: That’s the first question, how do you change the culture? There’s a lot of people that I had to stomach when I first became mayor who were the people involved with a lot of the things that made my life difficult for so many years. And I could choose to retaliate against everybody or I could choose to focus on the mission—and that’s what we chose to focus on. If you change the culture, you create clear objectives and you hold people accountable for those objectives.

Q: In other words, you’re looking forward, you’re not looking back. You’re not going to have an investigation of waterboarding, you’re just not going to do it anymore—like your friend Barack Obama?

A: [Laughs.] I’m not sure that the analogy quite holds. But we did not go back and investigate acts. That would’ve been fruitless. Unlike Barack Obama, we didn’t have ironclad evidence that this stuff existed. We probably could’ve turned the police department upside down, which would’ve drained tremendous resources from the urgent task at hand. The day I was elected, there were murders happening in the City of Newark, and the urgency was screaming to me from every corner. So we had to get the job done, and literally I jumped into a car with lights and sirens and began on Day One. In fact, on the day I took office, I was coming outside and there was a bank robber running, and I and my security detail chased them down and apprehended them.

Q: This whole crime issue is by no means an abstraction to you. Years ago, when you were strolling with your dad around the housing complex where you lived, didn’t you happen on a teenager who was just shot and died in your arms?

A: Yeah. It was a little bit up the street from where I lived, but absolutely. I spent many years, before I was mayor, witnessing the savage impact that violent crimes have. That really tragic incident, where I was on the scene, that shook me to my core frankly.

Q: What did your dad and your parents think of the fact that you were living in this terrible place full of crime and in danger on an hourly basis?

A: I’m not sure exactly, but I have to tell you that my parents know one thing: They raised me with a certain set of values. My brother and I were born on second base, and my father didn’t even have a ticket to the stadium. My parents raised my brother and me recognizing how privileged we were, but yet that we had an obligation to continue the larger struggle for this country. My mom would read poetry to us all the time. Langston Hughes was imprinted on my gray cells: This dream today embattled/ With its back against the wall—/ To save the dream for one/ It must be saved for all. Both my brother [Cary Booker, an inner-city educator in Memphis, Tennessee] and myself took it to very logical extremes—not even extremes, but logical conclusions. I don’t think we could do other things than what we are doing now. But does it worry my parents? My mom tells me all the time she has sore knees to this day, because I keep her on her knees praying so often.

Q: Get her some mayoral knee pads!

A: Great idea for her next birthday present.

Q: One of the things that you did, in a majority black city—where the Sharpe James machine had portrayed you as an errand boy for the white establishment—is you appointed a white guy [former NYPD Deputy Commissioner Garry McCarthy] to run the police force. How much heat did you take for that?

A: I think I took a lot of criticism, and I think some members of the council didn’t vote for him for those reasons. He had one incident on the Palisades Parkway that seemed to mark his record [a February 2005 traffic arrest that had escalated into an argument with the Palisades Parkway cops]. It was the first time I had editorial boards writing against me. Both The New York Times and the Star Ledger told me not to hire him. At least the Star Ledger editorial board told me recently that they made a mistake and I did the right thing, but there was a lot of pressure for different reasons not to hire the guy—from sort of the race-based reasoning to other things. But it was clear to me that this was going to be the great partner that I needed, the great leader that I needed, to drive down crime in the City of Newark.

Q: Racial politics have been with us forever in this country. Where are we now in terms of the role of race in politics, particularly given that we have a black president?

A: I think we do a tremendous disservice to our nation and our nation’s diverse cultural heritage if we just think of race in terms of let’s build different boxes and check off different categories—as if that’s the only lens with which we should view the world. The reality is, especially in the City of Newark, black Newarkers and white Newarkers and Latino Newarkers want a safe city, and more than anything they want the people best qualified to accomplish that. I think shallow, simplistic, or narrow racial views undermine the larger cultural success that we want to have as a country. Now I’m not one of those politicians who says we need to get to a race-transcendent country. The last thing I want is for America to transcend race. I think this culture is great because it has a rich black, Latino, Irish, Jewish culture, and so forth. I also think that as long as race is still so strongly correlated with injustice in this country, whether it’s a racial achievement gap in education, whether it’s a racial disparity in incarceration—you know, blacks are 14 percent of New Jersey’s population, and over 60 percent of the prison population—that you cannot just toss out race as an important factor by which to understand issues in this nation. But I’m not going to be a mayor who looks at the world through simply one lens. I’m going to see the full spectrum of the challenges we face, and therefore engage in the pursuit of the full spectrum of tools necessary to solve our problems.

Q: Where do you think we are on the continuum?

A: I think the election of Barack Obama had a powerful spiritual impact on all Americans. It was a very important step forward for the racial evolution of our nation, in terms of just understanding, the ability to appreciate each other in a broader context. Now every single day, Americans wake up seeing a qualified, competent president who is also black, and it does tremendous things to the psyche of a nation. One of my staff members mentors a black boy at a local school, who is now obsessed with Barack Obama, reads everything he can about him. It has expanded his moral imagination as to what he can be. Then there’s the white boy who may be confronted with strains of bigotry but now has an anchor rooting him against those powerful streams that might have dislodged his perspective.

Q: What is your relationship with some of the people who have supported Sharpe James—people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and that generation of black leadership? Is there still some tension there or have you all sung Kumbaya?

A: I cannot impress upon you enough the urgency of the moment for my job, the stresses and the strains. I’ve got too much to carry forward to have to take time to carry forth grudges and bitterness. I have to let that go. I look at everybody now, whether Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, whoever you want to say, and ask: Can we work together to advance the urgencies of my agenda? Al Sharpton, for example, is a guy who has been pragmatically very helpful to me, especially the stuff he’s doing with the Education Equality Project.

Q: Are you absolutely committed, with no possibility of changing your mind, to run for second term?

A: Yeah, look, I don’t—

Q: That’s a reverse Sherman-like statement!

A: I’m committed to running for this next term. I really worry sometimes how, especially in the political world, people are so often more concerned about a position than a purpose. I really want to stay true always to what I feel in my heart is my overriding purpose. We started a phenomenal mission. We’ve gained some incredible ground in three years. I think with another five years, we could just blow people away. Really what I’m interested in is expanding people’s ideas of what’s possible. I think Newark, New Jersey, can really become in five years a symbol of not just urban excellence, but an example of a transcendent city that really came together and leveraged its assets to achieve that which other people said was impossible.

Q: Now you’ve developed a friendship with Mike Bloomberg. You endorse him, he endorses you. Now Cory, are you trying to steal businesses from Manhattan and lure them to Newark?

A: I’m trying to get businesses from anywhere—literally from China to other New Jersey cities.

Q: I don’t think Bloomberg will care much about the businesses you get from China.

A: Are you trying to pick a fight between me and the billionaire?

Q: Sure!

A: I think most mayors are smart enough to know that businesses do not make decisions based upon personalities or people, especially in this economy. You’re looking at the bottom line. In many ways, those who believe in the powers of markets and efficiencies do believe that it makes sense for businesses to locate where they could be most efficient.

Q: When are you going to grace the City of Newark with a first lady?

A: I need to find the woman that will be tolerant of me, and that’s a very tall order.

Q: You’re a huge catch. What are you talking about?

A: I think you can ask my last girlfriend [a publicity-shy executive in the financial industry] that question. She might tell you it looks all rosy on the outside, but once you get to know the guy, the City of Newark is a jealous lover, and very competitive for my affections. I’m still friends with her.

Q: What do you think of all the gossip that you’re dating Arianna Huffington or Gayle King?

A: I love the speculation that you can’t be friends with somebody. I guess it’s a When Harry Met Sally question. But Gayle is a really, really good friend, and somebody I hang out with a lot. I just saw a movie with her very recently. We saw, God, why am I forgetting the name of it? But sometimes we go out together and we’ll run into paparazzi. She’s a great friend. She jokes on her radio show all the time that she’s the unofficial first lady of the City of Newark, a title I’ll happily give her. But there’s nothing romantic. She really is one of my favorite people on the planet though

Q: I guess if I ask you the question—what does the future hold for you?—you’ll give me some kind of vague, feel-good answer, right?

A: It would be horrible—the most politic thing I could say. You’d be nauseated. So I won’t even go there. But I’ll give you the five-year plan. We’re going to run for re-election, we’re looking forward to having a solid victory, and then we’re going to rock and roll. We’re really going to try to take the second term that much higher, that much more exciting and really make something new. We just started on the new social-media world, I’ve been on Twitter now for about two weeks. I think we’re going to start experimenting with new ways of accessing government. I’ve got some meetings in Silicon Valley coming up that I’m really excited about. Most importantly, we’re going to focus on the bread and butter, lowering crime, improving quality of life, et cetera, and if the economy eases up, watch out! You’re going to see cranes in the City of Newark, new buildings going up, new residential and business space, as well as hotels. It should be an exciting time.

Lloyd Grove is a frequent contributor to New York magazine and was a contributing editor for Condé Nast Portfolio. He wrote a gossip column for the New York Daily News from 2003 to 2006. Prior to that, he wrote the Reliable Source column for the Washington Post, where he spent 23 years covering politics, the media, and other subjects.

OUR FIRST BLACK LADY OF THE WORLD MICHELLE OBAMA TELLS CHILDREN ABOUT HEALTHY EATING(NO MORE INDOMINE!)!-FROM YAHOONEWS.COM

May 30, 2009

DAVID MARTINEZ LISTENS AS FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA SPEAKS AT BANCROFT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN WASHINGTON,FRIDAY,MAY 29,2009

DAVID MARTINEZ LISTENS AS FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA SPEAKS AT BANCROFT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN WASHINGTON,FRIDAY,MAY 29,2009

from news.yahoo.com

MICHELLE OBAMA VISITS WHITE HOUSE GARDEN HELPERS
By DARLENE SUPERVILLE– Fri May 29, 6:13 pm ET
WASHINGTON – It was time for Michelle Obama to return the favor.

She put out the welcome mat at the White House and is opening its doors to all types of visitors, schoolchildren especially. She even turned to some fifth-graders for help when she decided to plant a “kitchen” garden on a patch of the South Lawn.

These students have had a school-based, organic garden for several years, and were excited to turn soil and plant crops with the first lady.

When visitors come and go from the White House, Mrs. Obama likes to respond by going to see them in “their space.” So, on Friday, she climbed into her SUV and rode over to Bancroft Elementary School for a look.

She helped plant cucumber and red pepper seedlings in their garden, too.

Before slipping on the gardening gloves, Mrs. Obama listened as four students read from essays describing how much their relationship with her, their involvement with the White House garden and her message about eating more fresh fruits and vegetables means to them.

“It has inspired us to eat better, work harder and grow more vegetables,” said fifth-grader David Martinez.

Involving the students in the White House garden was about more than just digging in the dirt, Mrs. Obama said.

“They’ve really learned some lessons about nutrition,” she said, as the rest of their classmates and their parents listened from the sidelines. “They’re making different choices because they’re a part of the process of planting and tilling the soil and pulling up the food.”

She held up the project an example of what can be done nationally with kids and nutrition, particularly at a time of rising obesity rates and illnesses in youngsters that have been attributed to being overweight.

Mrs. Obama said she didn’t focus on the issue until her daughters’ pediatrician suggested she make changes in their diet. As a busy parent, and then during the presidential campaign, she said she often resorted to feeding her family with take-out and processed foods.

“We started to see that taking a toll on our health,” she said, adding that such simple changes as adding more fruits and vegetables to their plates and eliminating processed foods made the difference.

She also gave a status report on the White House garden, which was planted in March.

“It is blooming. It is bursting,” Mrs. Obama told her helpers.

They’ve already used about 80 pounds of lettuce, some of which was served at a luncheon for congressional spouses. Some lettuces, and honey, were donated to a local soup kitchen. Beans are beginning to sprout, and tomatoes are expected soon.

The students are due back at the White House to harvest some of the other crops and “will see a totally different garden,” Mrs. Obama told them. “Everything is blooming. We’ve even had to replant some more lettuce because we’ve used it up so quickly.”

OBAMA!-“OPTIMISM AMONG BLACK VOTERS GROWS IN OBAMA ERA”-FROM THEPOLITICALCARNIVAL.BLOGSPOT.COM

May 23, 2009

BLACK PRESIDENT OBAMA WITH BLACK SOLDIER, BLACK STEELER!-A PRESIDENT WE CAN RELATE TO!

BLACK PRESIDENT OBAMA WITH BLACK SOLDIER, BLACK STEELER!-A PRESIDENT WE CAN RELATE TO!

from thepoliticalcarnival.com

Friday, May 22, 2009
Optimism among black voters grows in Obama era

It’s slow and sure, but it damn well makes me feel good.

Four months into President Obama’s tenure, the mood of African-Americans throughout the country has improved to historic levels, according to a new Pew Research Study.

Asked whether Americans can always find a way to solve problems, 62 percent of blacks agree, up 22 points in just two years. In fact, agreement was up 12 points across racial lines, reflecting a more optimistic attitude than in 2007, despite the murky economic situation.

“The optimism from a personal sense about the country is most pronounced among African Americans,” Pew Research Center President Andrew Kohut said. “We’ve been tracking attitudes now since 1987 and we haven’t seen it bump up like it has now. It’s hard not to give [Obama] credit.”

The study on values and core attitudes shows African-Americans feel more invested in society — in fact, more blacks than whites say voting gives them a say in how the government makes decisions.

In fact, after the election of the country’s first black president, Americans of every race say racial attitudes and relations are improving. Just 31 percent of Americans say there hasn’t been much improvement for African-Americans, an all-time low and down 10 points in the past two years.


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