Archive for the ‘THE ORIGINAL ARABS WERE BLACK!’ Category

THE SUMERIANS AND OTHERS IN THE “NEAR EAST” WERE BLACK! FROM EGYPTSEARCH.COM

December 5, 2007

from egyptsearch.com

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Author Topic: Africa, Semites, and the “Near East”
Neith-Athena
Member
Member # 10040

Rate Member posted 28 November, 2007 05:08 PM
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I have broached this topic before, but would like to do so more fully now. Are there any languages besides the Elamites’ (probably related to Dravidian) or the Sumerians’ (a language isolate” in the “Near East” that are not Semitic? Did total linguistic replacement take place? Would the linguistic evidence, the archaeological and anthropological, and the genetic evidence not lead scholars to admit the pivotal role of Africans (not to dismiss the contributions of others) to the development of the “Near East”? Any responses would be appreciated.

Thanks.
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Clyde Winters

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Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 28 November, 2007 09:25 PM
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Yes. The thing you have to understand is that the Sumerian, Elamite and Dravidian languages are related. Not only are they related to one another they are also related to the Niger Congo languages especially : Mande, and Wolof.

The original inhabitants of South and West Asia were the Anu people. A catastrophe took place and many of the Anu centers of civilization outside the Nile Valley were destroyed.

The Sumerians were negroes , just like Africans.

Sumerian King Gudea

. [/qb]

Between 3500 and 2500 BC Kushite people from the Saharan highlands speaking Sumerian began to occupy Mesopotamia. Around the same time these Kushites entered Mesopotamia, the contemporary Syrian types began to migrate from the mountain areas into the valley areas settled by Sumerians. These mauranding nomads were called Gutians.

Gutians

In the history text these Gutians are protrayed as Sumerians. In reality the Gutian leaders of Lagash are not mentioned in any of the Sumerian King list.

.
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Clyde Winters

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Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 28 November, 2007 09:30 PM
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The Sumerians were differentiating themselves from the Gutians.

Gutian ….. Sumerian

Gutian

Sumerian King Gudea

Note the different handshake of the Sumerian and the Gutians. Much of the art published relating to Sumerians, are often pictures of the Gutians when they ruled Lagash.

No Gutian kings of Lagash are mentioned in the Sumerian King List.
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Mystery Solver
Member
Member # 9033

posted 28 November, 2007 10:09 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Neith-Athena:

I have broached this topic before, but would like to do so more fully now. Are there any languages besides the Elamites’ (probably related to Dravidian) or the Sumerians’ (a language isolate” in the “Near East” that are not Semitic?
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Scanty evidence of writing that can be traced back further in time than the dates approximated for the above mentioned groups, makes it difficult to determine how many more different languages may have been spoken in the region, besides or prior to the predominance of Semitic speaking groups in the region as seen today. It has even been suggested that…

perhaps there is an initial influence of Egyptian writing on Mesopotamia because there are signs on Mesopotamian objects that are only “readable” from the standpoint of the Egyptian language, but not the Mesopotamian language..

quote:
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Originally posted by Neith-Athena:

Did total linguistic replacement take place?
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It is safe to assume that prior to the movement of proto-Afrasan groups into the region, that this region would have had groups which spoke non-Afrasan languages. Over time, some languages eventually died out, while new ones developed from pre-existing branches. Given this, even if it is said that Afrasan languages didn’t ‘totally’ replace any pre-existing languages, it can be safely said that Afrasan languages largely replaced them.

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Neith-Athena:

Would the linguistic evidence, the archaeological and anthropological, and the genetic evidence not lead scholars to admit the pivotal role of Africans (not to dismiss the contributions of others) to the development of the “Near East”? Any responses would be appreciated.
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Already has. See above; almost the entire “Near Eastern” region from the Levant onwards is dominated by Afrasan languages. Upper Paleolithic and/or early Neolithic expanded PN2-derived lineages have virtually become markers for the spread of the farming economy. “Neolithic” era crania in the Levant have been characterized as a composite of distinctive modal patterns, certain aspects of which suggest strong affinities with specimens from the Upper Nile Valley. Certain new lithic [hence “Neolithic”] tools dated to a time frame prior to the “Neolithic agriculture” economy of the Levant, have been linked back to north Africa.

Related discussion amongst the many: Neolithic farmers, early semitic and Mesopotamia
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Clyde Winters

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Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 28 November, 2007 10:10 PM
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History as written today is nothing but falsehood. For example, here is a Sumerian:

But instead of showing Sumerians in textbooks scholars provide pictures of Gutians from Lagash:

Without the concept of race the lie being taught that the Sumerians were non-Blacks–Gutians– will exist forever, since text book publishers only publish what they want us to believe.You can continue to follow the Eurocentrists propaganda that erases Blacks from ancient history–I would rather stick to reality.

.
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rasol
Member
Member # 4592

posted 28 November, 2007 10:41 PM
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quote:
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Without the concept of race the lie being taught that the Sumerians were non-Blacks–Gutians– will exist forever, since text book publishers only publish what they want us to believe.
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I agree 100% that the Sumerians are misrepresented.

Indeed, the concept of race, which is itself a misrepresentation of biology is in part culpable for this misrepresentation, and never has been and never will be able to provide resolution.

Race in anthropology is a dead end debate, and you actually illustate this with your photos.

Advocates of race, can and will argue that this statue is caucasian, while you counter argue that is negro.

Such and argument has never progressed beyound shouting across a table.

This is one reason why most anthropologist no longer attempt to ascribe pseudo-scientific race classifications to ancient populations.

Race, in anthropology, is fatally flawed concept, it is percieved as -necessary- only for those whose thinking caged by European racists of the 17th century, who provided a world view, that some misguided Africanist scholars are still -reacting- to with racialist -counter myths-.

Modern African scholars are pursuing a revolutionary [as opposed to reactionary] discourse, which rethinks human history in terms that moot the old-dead-end race arguments.
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Clyde Winters

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Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 28 November, 2007 10:45 PM
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The languages spoken in ancient Mesopotamia and the Levant have changed overtime. The first people to dominate the area were the Sumerians. The language spoken by the Sumerians was adopted by the nomadic people living in the area, especially the Gutians.

Akkadian

The Sumerians were conquered by the Akkadians the Akkadians spoke a Semitic language. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Akkadians originated in the Sudan,migrated across East Africa into Arabia and replaced the Sumerians as the dominate group in Mesopotamia. The Gutians, once the Akkadians took over the region replaced Sumerian with the Semitic language spoken by the Akkadians. Since Akkadian times Semitic has been the dominate language in Mesopotamia.

Anoth group of Semitic speakers settled the Levant.These people were a great naval power called the Cananites and Phonesians.

The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Akkadians originated in Africa.

According to Haupt, in 1878, Akkadian , Minaean
and Ethiopic all belong to the same group of Semitic
languages, even though they are separated in time and
by great geographical distance. This is surprising
considering the fact that Ethiopic and Akkadian are
separated by many hundreds of years. The best example
of this unity is the presence of shared archaicism
. The linguistic feature of shared
archaicism is the appearance of the vowel after the
first consonant of the imperfect.

For example, one of the most outstanding features
of Ethiopian Semitic languages, is the presence of a vowel following the
first consonant in the verb form known as the
imperfect, e.g., yi quattul (using the hypothetical
verb consonants q-t-l, yi is the person marking
prefix) or yi k’ettl ‘he kills’. In Southwest Semitic
the form of the perfect is yu qtul-u . Here we have
the same hypothetical q-t-l form, but there is no
vowel following the first consonant of the verb root.

It is common in non-African languages to form words with two consonants. African languages usually have a vowel separting each consonant in a word e.g., unasema kiswahilli “Can you speak Swahilli’.

The fact that Akkadian has shared archaicism with Ethiopian Semitic
languages shows that at the time the
Akkadians and Ethiopic speakers separated these groups
had dialectical unity. The lack of this trait in
Arabic and Hebrew shows that they have been influenced
by the Indo-European speakers who invaded Palestine
and Arabia between 1300 B.C. and 900 B.C.

Semitic verb root

code:
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Akkadian Ethiopic/S.Arabiankl ‘to be dark’ ekelu Soqotri okil ‘to cover’mr ‘to see’ amaru Geez ammara;Tigre amarabr ‘to catch’ baru Soqotri b’rdgh ‘remove’ daqu Geez dagba ‘to perforate’kdn ‘to protect’ kidin Tigre kadna

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I call the Semitic languages , Puntite languages since there homeland was probably in the region the Egyptians called Punt.

The Cushitic substratum has strongly influenced
the phonology, morphology, syntax and vocabulary of
the Puntite languages.

code:
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Cushitic English SemiticSaho la wild cow *la-atSomali la id. id.

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This supports the view of I.M. Diakonoff that the
Semitic speakers and A-Group lived in close proximity
in ancient times. Archaeological evidence also supports this reality. A common ceramic style associated with ancient cultures in Northeast Africa and Arabia is the Tihama culture.

The Tihama pottery was related to the C-Group and Kerma people. This supports the movement of some of these groups into the Horn from this region and explains why the Akkadian and Ethiopic are closely related.

The evidence discussed above makes
it clear that Arabia, was probably not the original
homeland of the Semitic speakers. Modern Ethiopians and the Akkadians
originated in Africa, not Arabia.

Find out more about the Tihama culture here

Fattowich web page
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rasol
Member
Member # 4592

posted 28 November, 2007 10:52 PM
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^ Very interesting. Good post.
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Mystery Solver
Member
Member # 9033

posted 28 November, 2007 11:04 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The first people to dominate the area were the Sumerians.
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Would depend on time frame. For instance, who was dominant in the area during the “Natufian” inhabitation there?
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Clyde Winters

Member
Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 28 November, 2007 11:12 PM
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Rasol

I wish we could separate the history of the Middle East from race, but it is impossible to do so because of the desire of Eurocentrists to make Semitic speakers members of the “white” race.

The controversy surrounding the Kushite/African/Black origins of the Elamites, Sumerians, Akkadians and “Assyrians” is simple and yet complicated. It involves both the racism exhibited toward the African slaves in the Western Hemisphere and Africans generally which led to the idea that Africans had no history ; and the need of Julius Oppert to make Semites white, to accommodate the “white” ancestry of European Jews.

To understand this dichotomy we have to look at the history of scholarship surrounding the rise of Sumero-Akkadian studies. The study of the Sumerians, Akkadians. Assyrians and Elamites began with the decipherment of the cuneiform script by Henry Rawlinson. Henry Rawlinson had spent most of his career in the Orient. This appears to have gave him an open mind in regards to history. He recognized the Ancient Model of History, the idea that civilization was founded by the Kushite or Hamitic people of the Bible.

As result, Rawlinson was surprised during his research to discover that the founders of the Mesopotamian civilization were of Kushite origin. He made it clear that the Semitic speakers of Akkad and the non-Semitic speakers of Sumer were both Black or Negro people who called themselves sag-gig-ga “Black Heads”. In Rawlinson’s day the Sumerian people were recognized as Akkadian or Chaldean, while the Semitic speaking blacks were called Assyrians.

Rawlinson identified these Akkadians as Turanian or Scythic people. But he made it clear that these ancient Scythic or Turanian speaking people were Kushites or Blacks.

A major supporter of Rawlinson was Edward Hincks. Hincks continued Rawlinson’s work and identified the ancient group as Chaldeans, and also called them Turanian speakers. Hincks, though, never dicussed their ethnic origin.

A late comer to the study of the Sumerians and the Akkadians was Julius Oppert. Oppert was a German born of Jewish parents. He made it clear that the Chaldean and Akkadian people spoke different languages. He noted that the original founders of Mesopotamia civilization called themselves Ki-en-gi “land of the true lords”. It was the Semitic speakers who called themselves Akkadians.

Assyrians called the Ki-en-gi people Sumiritu “the sacred language”. Oppert popularized the Assyrian name Sumer, for the original founders of the civilization. Thus we have today the Akkadians and Sumerians of ancient Mesopotamia.

Oppert began to popularize the idea that the Sumerians were related to the contemporary Altaic and Turanian speaking people, e.g., Turks and Magyar (Hungarian) speaking people. He made it clear that the Akkadians were Semites like himself . To support this idea Oppert pointed out that typological features between Sumerian and Altaic languages existed. This feature was agglutination.

The problem with identifying the Sumerians as descendants from contemporary Turanian speakers resulted from the fact that Sumerian and the Turkish languages are not genetically related. As a result Oppert began to criticize the work of Hincks (who was dead at the time) in relation to the identification of the Sumerian people as Turanian following the research of Rawlinson.

It is strange to some observers that Oppert,never criticized Rawlinson who had proposed the Turanian origin of the Ki-en-gi (Sumerians). But this was not strange at all. Oppert did not attack Rawlinson who was still alive at the time because he knew that Rawlinson said the Sumerians were the original Scythic and Turanian people he called Kushites. Moreover, Rawlinson made it clear that both the Akkadians and Sumerians were Blacks. For Oppert to have debated this issue with Rawlinson, who deciphered the cuneiform script, would have meant that he would have had to accept the fact that Semites were Black. There was no way Oppert would have wanted to acknowledge his African heritage, given the Anti-Semitism experienced by Jews living in Europe.

Although Oppert successfully hid the recognition that the Akkadians and the Sumerians both refered to themselves as sag-gig-ga “black heads”, some researchers were unable to follow the status quo and ignore this reality. For example, Francois Lenormant, made it clear, following the research of Rawlinson, that the Elamite and Sumerians spoke genetically related languages. This idea was hard to reconcile with the depiction of people on the monuments of Iran, especially the Behistun monument, which depicted Negroes (with curly hair and beards) representing the Assyrians, Jews and Elamites who ruled the area. As a result, Oppert began the myth that the Sumerian languages was isolated from other languages spoken in the world evethough it shared typological features with the Altaic languages. Oppert taught Akkadian-Sumerian in many of the leading Universities in France and Germany. Many of his students soon began to dominate the Academe, or held chairs in Sumerian and Akkadian studies these researchers continued to perpetuate the myth that the Elamite and Sumerian languages were not related.

There was no way to keep from researchers who read the original Sumerian, Akkadian and Assyrian text that these people recognized that they were ethnically Blacks. This fact was made clear by Albert Terrien de LaCouperie. Born in France, de LaCouperie was a well known linguist and China expert. Although native of France most of his writings are in English. In the journal he published called the Babylonian and Oriental Record, he outlined many aspects of ancient history. In these pages he made it clear that the Sumerians, Akkadians and even the Assyrians who called themselves şalmat kakkadi ‘black headed people”, were all Blacks of Kushite origin. Eventhough de LaCouperie taught at the University of London, the prestige of Oppert, and the fact that the main centers for Sumero-Akkadian studies in France and Germany were founded by Oppert and or his students led to researchers ignoring the evidence that the Sumerians , Akkadians and Assyrians were Black.

In summary, the cuneiform evidence makes it clear that the Sumerians, Akkadians and Assyrians recognized themselves as Negroes: “black heads”. This fact was supported by the statues of Gudea, the Akkadians and Assyrians. Plus the Behistun monument made it clear that the Elamites were also Blacks.

The textual evidence also makes it clear that Oppert began the discussion of a typological relationship between Sumerian and Turkic languages. He also manufactured the idea that the Semites of Mesopotamia and Iran, the Assyrians and Akkadians were “whites”, like himself. Due to this brain washing, and whitening out of Blacks in history, many people today can look at depictions of Assyrians, Achamenians, and Akkadians and fail to see the Negro origin of these people.

To make the Sumerians “white” textbooks print pictures of artifacts dating to the Gutian rule of Lagash, to pass them off as the true originators of Sumerian civilization. No Gutian rulers of Lagash are recognized in the Sumerian King List.

.
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Clyde Winters

Member
Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 28 November, 2007 11:26 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The first people to dominate the area were the Sumerians.
——————————————————————————–

Would depend on time frame. For instance, who was dominant in the area during the “Natufian” inhabitation there?
——————————————————————————–

The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the Anu people, archaeologists call Natufians. By 13,000 BC, according to J.D. Clark (“The origins of domestication in Ethiopia”, Fifth Panafrican Congress of prehistory and quaternary Studies, Nairobi,1977) the Natufians were collecting grasses which later became domesticated crops in Southwest Asia.

In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (see F. Wendorf, The
History of Nubia, Dallas,1968, pp.941-46). These
Natufians , according to Christopher Ehret ( “On the antiquity of agriculture in Ethiopia”, Jour. of African History 20, [1979], p.161) were small stature folk who spread agriculture throughout Nubia into the Red Sea. The Natufians took the Ibero-Maurusian tools into Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.

The Natufians practiced evulsion of the incisors the same as Bantu people and inhabitants of the Saharan fringes. At this early date the Bantu were probably still in the Saharan highlands along with other Niger-Congo, Cushitic and etc., contemporary African groups. There are traditions among these people that when they settled much Africa, most regions were already occupied by small blacks probably San and/or Khoisan.

I believe that the Natufians given the craniometric evidence for this group probably were San and/or Khoisan . Up to today many Khoisan people live in East Africa, the origination point for the Natufian people. I would guess that the Natufians spoke a Khoisan language.

.
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Mystery Solver
Member
Member # 9033

posted 29 November, 2007 12:02 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The first people to dominate the area were the Sumerians.
——————————————————————————–

Would depend on time frame. For instance, who was dominant in the area during the “Natufian” inhabitation there?
——————————————————————————–

The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the Anu people, archaeologists call Natufians.
——————————————————————————–

You know this because…?

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (see F. Wendorf, The
History of Nubia, Dallas,1968, pp.941-46).
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What do you think of as “Ibero-Maurusian”? Why that designation, when we are dealing with new microlithic tools originating in mainland Africa and transferred into the Levant via the Nile Valley?

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe that the Natufians given the craniometric evidence for this group probably were San and/or Khoisan .
——————————————————————————–

What cranio-metric evidence has led you to that conclusion?

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Up to today many Khoisan people live in East Africa, the origination point for the Natufian people. I would guess that the Natufians spoke a Khoisan language.
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No Khoisan language is known to occur in the “Near East”, but Afrasan languages do predominate in that region from the Levant downwards. What markers linguitics-wise and genetics-wise, would help us learn about this close Natufian-Khoisan linkage you speak of?
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Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 04:43 AM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Rasol

I wish we could separate the history of the Middle East from race, but it is impossible to do so because of the desire of Eurocentrists to make Semitic speakers members of the “white” race.

The controversy surrounding the Kushite/African/Black origins of the Elamites, Sumerians, Akkadians and “Assyrians” is simple and yet complicated. It involves both the racism exhibited toward the African slaves in the Western Hemisphere and Africans generally which led to the idea that Africans had no history ; and the need of Julius Oppert to make Semites white, to accommodate the “white” ancestry of European Jews.

To understand this dichotomy we have to look at the history of scholarship surrounding the rise of Sumero-Akkadian studies. The study of the Sumerians, Akkadians. Assyrians and Elamites began with the decipherment of the cuneiform script by Henry Rawlinson. Henry Rawlinson had spent most of his career in the Orient. This appears to have gave him an open mind in regards to history. He recognized the Ancient Model of History, the idea that civilization was founded by the Kushite or Hamitic people of the Bible.

As result, Rawlinson was surprised during his research to discover that the founders of the Mesopotamian civilization were of Kushite origin. He made it clear that the Semitic speakers of Akkad and the non-Semitic speakers of Sumer were both Black or Negro people who called themselves sag-gig-ga “Black Heads”. In Rawlinson’s day the Sumerian people were recognized as Akkadian or Chaldean, while the Semitic speaking blacks were called Assyrians.

Rawlinson identified these Akkadians as Turanian or Scythic people. But he made it clear that these ancient Scythic or Turanian speaking people were Kushites or Blacks.

A major supporter of Rawlinson was Edward Hincks. Hincks continued Rawlinson’s work and identified the ancient group as Chaldeans, and also called them Turanian speakers. Hincks, though, never dicussed their ethnic origin.

A late comer to the study of the Sumerians and the Akkadians was Julius Oppert. Oppert was a German born of Jewish parents. He made it clear that the Chaldean and Akkadian people spoke different languages. He noted that the original founders of Mesopotamia civilization called themselves Ki-en-gi “land of the true lords”. It was the Semitic speakers who called themselves Akkadians.

Assyrians called the Ki-en-gi people Sumiritu “the sacred language”. Oppert popularized the Assyrian name Sumer, for the original founders of the civilization. Thus we have today the Akkadians and Sumerians of ancient Mesopotamia.

Oppert began to popularize the idea that the Sumerians were related to the contemporary Altaic and Turanian speaking people, e.g., Turks and Magyar (Hungarian) speaking people. He made it clear that the Akkadians were Semites like himself . To support this idea Oppert pointed out that typological features between Sumerian and Altaic languages existed. This feature was agglutination.

The problem with identifying the Sumerians as descendants from contemporary Turanian speakers resulted from the fact that Sumerian and the Turkish languages are not genetically related. As a result Oppert began to criticize the work of Hincks (who was dead at the time) in relation to the identification of the Sumerian people as Turanian following the research of Rawlinson.

It is strange to some observers that Oppert,never criticized Rawlinson who had proposed the Turanian origin of the Ki-en-gi (Sumerians). But this was not strange at all. Oppert did not attack Rawlinson who was still alive at the time because he knew that Rawlinson said the Sumerians were the original Scythic and Turanian people he called Kushites. Moreover, Rawlinson made it clear that both the Akkadians and Sumerians were Blacks. For Oppert to have debated this issue with Rawlinson, who deciphered the cuneiform script, would have meant that he would have had to accept the fact that Semites were Black. There was no way Oppert would have wanted to acknowledge his African heritage, given the Anti-Semitism experienced by Jews living in Europe.

Although Oppert successfully hid the recognition that the Akkadians and the Sumerians both refered to themselves as sag-gig-ga “black heads”, some researchers were unable to follow the status quo and ignore this reality. For example, Francois Lenormant, made it clear, following the research of Rawlinson, that the Elamite and Sumerians spoke genetically related languages. This idea was hard to reconcile with the depiction of people on the monuments of Iran, especially the Behistun monument, which depicted Negroes (with curly hair and beards) representing the Assyrians, Jews and Elamites who ruled the area. As a result, Oppert began the myth that the Sumerian languages was isolated from other languages spoken in the world evethough it shared typological features with the Altaic languages. Oppert taught Akkadian-Sumerian in many of the leading Universities in France and Germany. Many of his students soon began to dominate the Academe, or held chairs in Sumerian and Akkadian studies these researchers continued to perpetuate the myth that the Elamite and Sumerian languages were not related.

There was no way to keep from researchers who read the original Sumerian, Akkadian and Assyrian text that these people recognized that they were ethnically Blacks. This fact was made clear by Albert Terrien de LaCouperie. Born in France, de LaCouperie was a well known linguist and China expert. Although native of France most of his writings are in English. In the journal he published called the Babylonian and Oriental Record, he outlined many aspects of ancient history. In these pages he made it clear that the Sumerians, Akkadians and even the Assyrians who called themselves şalmat kakkadi ‘black headed people”, were all Blacks of Kushite origin. Eventhough de LaCouperie taught at the University of London, the prestige of Oppert, and the fact that the main centers for Sumero-Akkadian studies in France and Germany were founded by Oppert and or his students led to researchers ignoring the evidence that the Sumerians , Akkadians and Assyrians were Black.

In summary, the cuneiform evidence makes it clear that the Sumerians, Akkadians and Assyrians recognized themselves as Negroes: “black heads”. This fact was supported by the statues of Gudea, the Akkadians and Assyrians. Plus the Behistun monument made it clear that the Elamites were also Blacks.

The textual evidence also makes it clear that Oppert began the discussion of a typological relationship between Sumerian and Turkic languages. He also manufactured the idea that the Semites of Mesopotamia and Iran, the Assyrians and Akkadians were “whites”, like himself. Due to this brain washing, and whitening out of Blacks in history, many people today can look at depictions of Assyrians, Achamenians, and Akkadians and fail to see the Negro origin of these people.

To make the Sumerians “white” textbooks print pictures of artifacts dating to the Gutian rule of Lagash, to pass them off as the true originators of Sumerian civilization. No Gutian rulers of Lagash are recognized in the Sumerian King List.

.
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Please provide citations from Rawlins, et al that says these people were “blacks”. Please provide citations from the Behistun monument that “clearly” shows that these people identified themselves as blacks or from Africa. I don’t see anything that supports what you are saying.
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Clyde Winters

Member
Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 09:12 AM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Rasol

I wish we could separate the history of the Middle East from race, but it is impossible to do so because of the desire of Eurocentrists to make Semitic speakers members of the “white” race.

The controversy surrounding the Kushite/African/Black origins of the Elamites, Sumerians, Akkadians and “Assyrians” is simple and yet complicated. It involves both the racism exhibited toward the African slaves in the Western Hemisphere and Africans generally which led to the idea that Africans had no history ; and the need of Julius Oppert to make Semites white, to accommodate the “white” ancestry of European Jews.

To understand this dichotomy we have to look at the history of scholarship surrounding the rise of Sumero-Akkadian studies. The study of the Sumerians, Akkadians. Assyrians and Elamites began with the decipherment of the cuneiform script by Henry Rawlinson. Henry Rawlinson had spent most of his career in the Orient. This appears to have gave him an open mind in regards to history. He recognized the Ancient Model of History, the idea that civilization was founded by the Kushite or Hamitic people of the Bible.

As result, Rawlinson was surprised during his research to discover that the founders of the Mesopotamian civilization were of Kushite origin. He made it clear that the Semitic speakers of Akkad and the non-Semitic speakers of Sumer were both Black or Negro people who called themselves sag-gig-ga “Black Heads”. In Rawlinson’s day the Sumerian people were recognized as Akkadian or Chaldean, while the Semitic speaking blacks were called Assyrians.

Rawlinson identified these Akkadians as Turanian or Scythic people. But he made it clear that these ancient Scythic or Turanian speaking people were Kushites or Blacks.

A major supporter of Rawlinson was Edward Hincks. Hincks continued Rawlinson’s work and identified the ancient group as Chaldeans, and also called them Turanian speakers. Hincks, though, never dicussed their ethnic origin.

A late comer to the study of the Sumerians and the Akkadians was Julius Oppert. Oppert was a German born of Jewish parents. He made it clear that the Chaldean and Akkadian people spoke different languages. He noted that the original founders of Mesopotamia civilization called themselves Ki-en-gi “land of the true lords”. It was the Semitic speakers who called themselves Akkadians.

Assyrians called the Ki-en-gi people Sumiritu “the sacred language”. Oppert popularized the Assyrian name Sumer, for the original founders of the civilization. Thus we have today the Akkadians and Sumerians of ancient Mesopotamia.

Oppert began to popularize the idea that the Sumerians were related to the contemporary Altaic and Turanian speaking people, e.g., Turks and Magyar (Hungarian) speaking people. He made it clear that the Akkadians were Semites like himself . To support this idea Oppert pointed out that typological features between Sumerian and Altaic languages existed. This feature was agglutination.

The problem with identifying the Sumerians as descendants from contemporary Turanian speakers resulted from the fact that Sumerian and the Turkish languages are not genetically related. As a result Oppert began to criticize the work of Hincks (who was dead at the time) in relation to the identification of the Sumerian people as Turanian following the research of Rawlinson.

It is strange to some observers that Oppert,never criticized Rawlinson who had proposed the Turanian origin of the Ki-en-gi (Sumerians). But this was not strange at all. Oppert did not attack Rawlinson who was still alive at the time because he knew that Rawlinson said the Sumerians were the original Scythic and Turanian people he called Kushites. Moreover, Rawlinson made it clear that both the Akkadians and Sumerians were Blacks. For Oppert to have debated this issue with Rawlinson, who deciphered the cuneiform script, would have meant that he would have had to accept the fact that Semites were Black. There was no way Oppert would have wanted to acknowledge his African heritage, given the Anti-Semitism experienced by Jews living in Europe.

Although Oppert successfully hid the recognition that the Akkadians and the Sumerians both refered to themselves as sag-gig-ga “black heads”, some researchers were unable to follow the status quo and ignore this reality. For example, Francois Lenormant, made it clear, following the research of Rawlinson, that the Elamite and Sumerians spoke genetically related languages. This idea was hard to reconcile with the depiction of people on the monuments of Iran, especially the Behistun monument, which depicted Negroes (with curly hair and beards) representing the Assyrians, Jews and Elamites who ruled the area. As a result, Oppert began the myth that the Sumerian languages was isolated from other languages spoken in the world evethough it shared typological features with the Altaic languages. Oppert taught Akkadian-Sumerian in many of the leading Universities in France and Germany. Many of his students soon began to dominate the Academe, or held chairs in Sumerian and Akkadian studies these researchers continued to perpetuate the myth that the Elamite and Sumerian languages were not related.

There was no way to keep from researchers who read the original Sumerian, Akkadian and Assyrian text that these people recognized that they were ethnically Blacks. This fact was made clear by Albert Terrien de LaCouperie. Born in France, de LaCouperie was a well known linguist and China expert. Although native of France most of his writings are in English. In the journal he published called the Babylonian and Oriental Record, he outlined many aspects of ancient history. In these pages he made it clear that the Sumerians, Akkadians and even the Assyrians who called themselves şalmat kakkadi ‘black headed people”, were all Blacks of Kushite origin. Eventhough de LaCouperie taught at the University of London, the prestige of Oppert, and the fact that the main centers for Sumero-Akkadian studies in France and Germany were founded by Oppert and or his students led to researchers ignoring the evidence that the Sumerians , Akkadians and Assyrians were Black.

In summary, the cuneiform evidence makes it clear that the Sumerians, Akkadians and Assyrians recognized themselves as Negroes: “black heads”. This fact was supported by the statues of Gudea, the Akkadians and Assyrians. Plus the Behistun monument made it clear that the Elamites were also Blacks.

The textual evidence also makes it clear that Oppert began the discussion of a typological relationship between Sumerian and Turkic languages. He also manufactured the idea that the Semites of Mesopotamia and Iran, the Assyrians and Akkadians were “whites”, like himself. Due to this brain washing, and whitening out of Blacks in history, many people today can look at depictions of Assyrians, Achamenians, and Akkadians and fail to see the Negro origin of these people.

To make the Sumerians “white” textbooks print pictures of artifacts dating to the Gutian rule of Lagash, to pass them off as the true originators of Sumerian civilization. No Gutian rulers of Lagash are recognized in the Sumerian King List.

.
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Please provide citations from Rawlins, et al that says these people were “blacks”. Please provide citations from the Behistun monument that “clearly” shows that these people identified themselves as blacks or from Africa. I don’t see anything that supports what you are saying.
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Of course you wouldn’t understand anything I am saying you believe that the only Africans to influence history lived in Egypt. But other scholars know the truth.

Col. Rawlinson the decipherer of the cuneiform writing makes it clear that the ancient Turanians were the“Hamitic Nations” mentioned in the Bible: Kush (Cush), Misraim (Egypt), Nimrud ( Sumerians and Elamites) and Canaan (Phonesians) (see: C.B. Rawlinson, “Notes on
the early history of Babylon”, Jour. Royal Asiatic Society (First Series) 15, p.230. ).

.
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Djehuti
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Member # 6698

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 12:29 PM
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^ Why is this thread being overrun with Winters fantasies?
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rasol
Member
Member # 4592

posted 29 November, 2007 12:45 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Rasol

I wish we could separate the history of the Middle East from race,
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We don’t need to separate

-history- of

-middle east- from

-race-

We need to separate

-fact-

from

-fiction-.

For example -> the *middle east* is a fictious historical entity.

It is invented by the British, with the esoteric geopolitical purpose of preventing Iran from claiming the rights to it’s own oil.

It is meant to describe and legitimize a zone of European political influence.

Before the British invented this term in the early 20th century – there is no reference to the *middle east* anywhere in the world.

Nor is there and equivalent term, or conception.

The term is completely non-native, unnatural, and superimosed upon non European people for the primary purposes of sublimating there native identities and interest.

Like the middle east – *race* is also false, and pseudo-scientific construct of Eurocentrists.

Therefore, to speak of the ‘racial history of the middle east’ is to surrender to Eurocentric brainwashing.

It is a discourse rooted in nonsense, and bounded by the constructs of Eurocentric racists.

The consequence of Africanists scholars who repeat this conception is to serve the interest of Eurocentrist.

As long as we remained ‘pinned down’ discussing the world in terms of a Eurocentric ideology of ‘race’ and ‘middle east’, then Eurocentrist prevail because they keep the conversation stalemated.

A stalemate always serves the interest of protectors of the status quo.

Remember this, the next time you claim King Tut is a Negro because he has prognathism, and Eurocentrist laugh and counter that he is a Caucasian because he has a high nasal bridge.

[both features are also found in the statues you posted]

You can’t win and argument in the context of a nonsensical dialectic that was designed -by your opponent- to begin with.

The very act of repeating after their racial dialectic, which is based on their root assumptions, is to be defeated by it.

I actually suspect that you are beginning to see this, Dr. Winters.
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rasol
Member
Member # 4592

posted 29 November, 2007 01:26 PM
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quote:
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The controversy surrounding the Kushite/African/Black origins of the Elamites, Sumerians, Akkadians and “Assyrians” is simple and yet complicated. It involves both the racism exhibited toward the African slaves in the Western Hemisphere and Africans generally which led to the idea that Africans had no history ; and the need of Julius Oppert to make Semites white, to accommodate the “white” ancestry of European Jews.
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You can shorten this paragraph by saying that the controversy over the identiy of Kemetian, Kushites and Elamites rooted in racism….yes.

quote:
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Rawlinson was surprised during his research to discover that the founders of the Mesopotamian civilization were of Kushite origin. He made it clear that the Semitic speakers of Akkad and the non-Semitic speakers of Sumer were both Black or Negro people who called themselves sag-gig-ga “Black Heads”.
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I agree that Sumerians, like the Kemetians, referred to themselves as Blacks, that this reference is and always has been *ethnic* in character, and that this fact is so disturbing to Eurocentric racists, that they have gone to laughable lengths to invent alternate *explanations*, which for the most part, they don’t actually believe in, but assert effectively as pro-forma propaganda.

British scholar George Rawlinson is one of the 1st to translation Herodotus Histories correctly, in which Herodotus repeatedly refers to Egyptians, Ethiopians and others as Blacks.

EX:

– Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair

— Two black doves flew away from Egyptian Thebes, and while one directed its flight to Libya, the other came to them.

By calling the dove black the Dodonaeans indicated that the woman was an Egyptian.

http://www.piney.com/Heredotus2.html

It is interesting to observe in action – Eurocentrism at it’s most desparate and dissembling, tactics have included

– Deny use of the term ‘black’ to describe the Egyptians, and -blame- ‘afrocentric’ misreading – when in fact the early English language translations of Herodotus by Rawlinson and others *all* correctly translated Herodotus as saying such.

— Admit the use of the term black [thus contradicting the former denial], but claim that it doesn’t actually reference Egyptians, but rather Nubians.

Ex:
Herodotus believed this because the *Colchians were black skinned and woolly haired.*

For starters,Herodotus makes no claim that all of the Egyptians had these features and secondly black Nubian mercenaries served in the Egyptian army which would include Pharaoh Sesostris’s army.
https://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/category/black-is-beautiful/

^ This is a beautiful bit of dissembing.

It accuses others of misreading Herodotus, then puts words in Herodotus mouth [Nubians?] he never spoke, in order to evade what he actually said.

It ignores the fact that Herodotus is citing Black skin and Woolly hair as a *common feature* of Ethiopians, Egyptians and Colchians.

After all – he acribes Colchian and -Egyptian- origin, due to black skin and woolly hair -> not and Ethiopian origin due to *nubians* in Egyptian army.

It engages in the straw man argument that Herodotus did not state that *all* Egyptians or *all* Colchoi had these features. [he doesn’t say *all* Ethiopians had them, for that matter].

Of course what is relevant is that Blackness is cited by Herodotus as a common denominator and defining characteristic of all 3 groups, which is of course, exactly what is at issue!

So yes, Eurocentrists are desparate liars, and….they know this.
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rasol
Member
Member # 4592

posted 29 November, 2007 01:34 PM
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quote:
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What do you think of as “Ibero-Maurusian”? Why that designation, when we are dealing with new microlithic tools originating in mainland Africa and transferred into the Levant via the Nile Valley?
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^ As with Dr. Winters use of Cro-Magnon, it shows residual reliance on musty Eurocentric bogusness.
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Yonis2
Member
Member # 11348

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 02:17 PM
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quote:
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rasol wrote:
For example -> the *middle east* is a fictious historical entity
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Couldn’t the same be said about Europe? I never see you say “Europe” is a fictious historical entity, why is that since you even acknowledge “European people” in the above post?
At the end of the day all these terms, middle east, europe, southeast asia etc are just political. Everyone knows that regardless if they were created 10, 100, 1000 or 10 000 years ago. Same with all nation states.
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Clyde Winters

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Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 02:43 PM
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The Semitic speakers were not the first people to live in the Area. Eventhough Sumerian is no longer spoken in the Middle east we know that the Sumerians lived in the region. Many Amerindian groups live in and near Chicago,Amerindian languages are no longer spoken in the Chicago region, and the average Chicagoan does not carry Amerindian genes. As a result, just because many people in the area today speak Semitic languages and carry “Semitic genes” does not mean that the Natufians, who belonged to a different culture and ethnic group (i.e., negroes) than any Semitic group living in the Levant today, is not proof that the Natufians were Semitic speakers.

We know the people were called Anu, because the Sumerian texts claim that the original people in the area were Anu or Anunaki. Egyptians claimed the first rulers of Egypt were also called Anu.

The archaeologist referred to these Khoisan speakers as Bushman Hottentots. W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that “There was once a an “uninterrupted belt’ of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa” (p.88).These people were smaller than Semitic speakers. Below is one of the early articles on the Natufians

quote:
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BONES OF CANNIBALS A PALESTINE RIDDLE
Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
New York Times 1857; Aug 4, 1932; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 – 2003)
pg. 21

Negroid people of 5000 B. C.Unlike Any Modern Race Described by Keith.

ATE BODIES OF ENEMIES
Men, Short of Stature, Burned Bones of Dead After Burial, London Session Hears.
TEETH OF WOMEN DRAWN
Linking relics to Burnt Skeletons from Ur scientist speculate an old cremation custom.

Wireless to NEW YORK TIMES London Aug. 3

Seven or eight thousand years ago in what geologist call modern times a race of negroid cannibals lived In Palestine, burned the bones of their dead after burial, and devoured the bodies of their enemies.
Skulls and thighbones of this race were unearthed within the last four years, first at Shukbah near Jerusalem and later in caves at Mount Carmel, and because they puzzled the excavators who found them they received the new name “Natufians.”
Today the first authoritative account of them was given by Sir Arthur Keith to the congress of Prehistoric and Protohistoric Sciences and showed them to be one of the greatest riddles of archaeology.
They were clearly a Negroid people, said Sir Arthur, with wide faces flat- noses and long large heads.
They were short of stature 5 feet 3 or 4 inches tall-and their thighs and legs were remarkably strong.
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.
quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:
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Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The first people to dominate the area were the Sumerians.
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Would depend on time frame. For instance, who was dominant in the area during the “Natufian” inhabitation there?
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The founders of civilization in South West Asia were the Anu people, archaeologists call Natufians.
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You know this because…?

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

In Palestine the Natufians established intensive grass collection. The Natufians used the Ibero-Maurusian tool industry (see F. Wendorf, The
History of Nubia, Dallas,1968, pp.941-46).
——————————————————————————–

What do you think of as “Ibero-Maurusian”? Why that designation, when we are dealing with new microlithic tools originating in mainland Africa and transferred into the Levant via the Nile Valley?

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe that the Natufians given the craniometric evidence for this group probably were San and/or Khoisan .
——————————————————————————–

What cranio-metric evidence has led you to that conclusion?

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Up to today many Khoisan people live in East Africa, the origination point for the Natufian people. I would guess that the Natufians spoke a Khoisan language.
——————————————————————————–

No Khoisan language is known to occur in the “Near East”, but Afrasan languages do predominate in that region from the Levant downwards. What markers linguitics-wise and genetics-wise, would help us learn about this close Natufian-Khoisan linkage you speak of?
——————————————————————————–

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Doug M
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Member # 7650

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 02:52 PM
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The point that you are missing Mr. Winters is that the Anu were not the same as the San people. They may have been small statured, but that does not make them San. Just like Pygmies are not san people either, even though they are both indigenous African groups. The Anu were quite possibly closer to the Anu than the San, but seeing as no skeletal remains of these “anu” has been provided, how do we determine the relationship? Those skeletons referenced in the 1930s must still be around somewhere.
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Clyde Winters

Member
Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 03:00 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Doug M:
The point that you are missing Mr. Winters is that the Anu were not the same as the San people. They may have been small statured, but that does not make them San. Just like Pygmies are not san people either, even though they are both indigenous African groups. The Anu were quite possibly closer to the Anu than the San, but seeing as no skeletal remains of these “anu” has been provided, how do we determine the relationship? Those skeletons referenced in the 1930s must still be around somewhere.
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What makes you so sure they are not the Anu? Please cite the craniometric differences between the Natufians and the San and Khoisan people that lead you to this conclusion.

.
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Keins

Member
Member # 6476

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 03:32 PM
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This is a great topic guys. And I must commend on the civility of the discussion and exchange of ideas, information and respectable disagreement!

Kodos!
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Yonis2
Member
Member # 11348

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 03:54 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Clyde Winters wrote:
just because many people in the area today speak Semitic languages and carry “Semitic genes” does not mean that the Natufians, who belonged to a different culture and ethnic group (i.e., negroes) than any Semitic group living in the Levant today, is not proof that the Natufians were Semitic speakers.
——————————————————————————–

What is “negroid” according to you Clyde Winters?
Are all people (according to your citation above)of “wide faces flat- noses and long large heads” ” constitute of negroid people to you? And if thats so, what exactly do connect all these people other than these features? What gives you the energy to fight for these “wide faces flat- noses and long large heads” people throughout your career, you consider them all being of common proto-“negroid” origin? What exactly is your point?
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Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 04:11 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Yonis2:

Couldn’t the same be said about Europe? I never see you say “Europe” is a fictious historical entity, why is that since you even acknowledge “European people” in the above post?
At the end of the day all these terms, middle east, europe, southeast asia etc are just political. Everyone knows that regardless if they were created 10, 100, 1000 or 10 000 years ago. Same with all nation states.
——————————————————————————–

The only difference is that ‘Europe’ was created by Europeans to describe themselves and which they accepted.

Also, the term is based on a definite region based on actual geography/geology, with Europe being an actual subcontinent.

Neither of these things above can be said about “Middle East”.
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Posts: 10492 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005 | IP: Logged |

Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 04:14 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by rasol:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
The controversy surrounding the Kushite/African/Black origins of the Elamites, Sumerians, Akkadians and “Assyrians” is simple and yet complicated. It involves both the racism exhibited toward the African slaves in the Western Hemisphere and Africans generally which led to the idea that Africans had no history ; and the need of Julius Oppert to make Semites white, to accommodate the “white” ancestry of European Jews.
——————————————————————————–

You can shorten this paragraph by saying that the controversy over the identiy of Kemetian, Kushites and Elamites rooted in racism….yes.

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Rawlinson was surprised during his research to discover that the founders of the Mesopotamian civilization were of Kushite origin. He made it clear that the Semitic speakers of Akkad and the non-Semitic speakers of Sumer were both Black or Negro people who called themselves sag-gig-ga “Black Heads”.
——————————————————————————–

I agree that Sumerians, like the Kemetians, referred to themselves as Blacks, that this reference is and always has been *ethnic* in character, and that this fact is so disturbing to Eurocentric racists, that they have gone to laughable lengths to invent alternate *explanations*, which for the most part, they don’t actually believe in, but assert effectively as pro-forma propaganda.

British scholar George Rawlinson is one of the 1st to translation Herodotus Histories correctly, in which Herodotus repeatedly refers to Egyptians, Ethiopians and others as Blacks.

EX:

– Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair

— Two black doves flew away from Egyptian Thebes, and while one directed its flight to Libya, the other came to them.

By calling the dove black the Dodonaeans indicated that the woman was an Egyptian.

http://www.piney.com/Heredotus2.html

It is interesting to observe in action – Eurocentrism at it’s most desparate and dissembling, tactics have included

– Deny use of the term ‘black’ to describe the Egyptians, and -blame- ‘afrocentric’ misreading – when in fact the early English language translations of Herodotus by Rawlinson and others *all* correctly translated Herodotus as saying such.

— Admit the use of the term black [thus contradicting the former denial], but claim that it doesn’t actually reference Egyptians, but rather Nubians.

Ex:
Herodotus believed this because the *Colchians were black skinned and woolly haired.*

For starters,Herodotus makes no claim that all of the Egyptians had these features and secondly black Nubian mercenaries served in the Egyptian army which would include Pharaoh Sesostris’s army.
https://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/category/black-is-beautiful/

^ This is a beautiful bit of dissembing.

It accuses others of misreading Herodotus, then puts words in Herodotus mouth [Nubians?] he never spoke, in order to evade what he actually said.

It ignores the fact that Herodotus is citing Black skin and Woolly hair as a *common feature* of Ethiopians, Egyptians and Colchians.

After all – he acribes Colchian and -Egyptian- origin, due to black skin and woolly hair -> not and Ethiopian origin due to *nubians* in Egyptian army.

It engages in the straw man argument that Herodotus did not state that *all* Egyptians or *all* Colchoi had these features. [he doesn’t say *all* Ethiopians had them, for that matter].

Of course what is relevant is that Blackness is cited by Herodotus as a common denominator and defining characteristic of all 3 groups, which is of course, exactly what is at issue!

So yes, Eurocentrists are desparate liars, and….they know this.
——————————————————————————–

I concur. The only fallacy now is Winters claiming that all these black peoples were Africans or “Kushites”. The Sumerians and Elamites were NOT African Kushites and neither were the Dravidians despite the fact that they are all black.

We have been through the reasons numerous times.
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Posts: 10492 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005 | IP: Logged |

Yonis2
Member
Member # 11348

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 04:15 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Yonis2:

Couldn’t the same be said about Europe? I never see you say “Europe” is a fictious historical entity, why is that since you even acknowledge “European people” in the above post?
At the end of the day all these terms, middle east, europe, southeast asia etc are just political. Everyone knows that regardless if they were created 10, 100, 1000 or 10 000 years ago. Same with all nation states.
——————————————————————————–

The only difference is that ‘Europe’ was created by Europeans to describe themselves and which they accepted.

——————————————————————————–

Yes, but that still doesn’t make it less fictious than “middle east”.

quote:
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Also, the term is based on a definite region based on actual geography/geology, with Europe being an actual subcontinent.
——————————————————————————–

And how exactly does this differ from “middle east”? Neither Europe or Middle-East are continents of their own.
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alTakruri

Member
Member # 10195

Member Rated:
posted 29 November, 2007 07:22 PM
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No doubt about certain of them being Kushites.
Kushite was ancient vernacular for what we call
black when we speak of black people or blackfolks.
Major doubt about any of them being “colonies”
from the greater continental African landmass.
Of course Colchians are the exception being
that they were described in classical times
as an exode from Egyptian army (but what of
their womefolk? I mean Medea was ???).

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Djehuti:
The only fallacy now is Winters claiming that all these black peoples were Africans or “Kushites”. The Sumerians and Elamites were NOT African Kushites and neither were the Dravidians despite the fact that they are all black.

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Mystery Solver
Member
Member # 9033

posted 29 November, 2007 11:24 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Semitic speakers were not the first people to live in the Area.
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And you heard that they were, from where?

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Eventhough Sumerian is no longer spoken in the Middle east we know that the Sumerians lived in the region. Many Amerindian groups live in and near Chicago,Amerindian languages are no longer spoken in the Chicago region, and the average Chicagoan does not carry Amerindian genes.
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Non-issue.

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

As a result, just because many people in the area today speak Semitic languages and carry “Semitic genes” does not mean that the Natufians, who belonged to a different culture and ethnic group (i.e., negroes) than any Semitic group living in the Levant today, is not proof that the Natufians were Semitic speakers.
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Another non-issue. You were asked for preponderance of evidence that shows strong links between Natufians and Khoisans.

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

We know the people were called Anu, because the Sumerian texts claim that the original people in the area were Anu or Anunaki. Egyptians claimed the first rulers of Egypt were also called Anu.
——————————————————————————–

How does this prove any link with the Natufians, even if one were to go with your idea that Sumerian texts’ reference to “Anunaki” is referencing the same group designated as “Anu” in the Nile Valley? The Natufian complex precedes the arrival or “appearance” of Sumerians in the region by a significant time gap.

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The archaeologist referred to these Khoisan speakers as Bushman Hottentots. W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that “There was once a an “uninterrupted belt’ of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa” (p.88).These people were smaller than Semitic speakers. Below is one of the early articles on the Natufians
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So stature is supposedly the determinant that you are going by, with this tenuous strong link between Natufians and Khoisans? How does this even address what was asked of you; i.e., the cranio-metric tendencies that suggest very strong link between Natufians and Khoisans, not to leave out genetic and linguistic evidence?
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Posts: 1622 | Registered: Sep 2005 | IP: Logged |

Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Member Rated:
posted 30 November, 2007 12:37 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Yonis2:

Yes, but that still doesn’t make it less fictious than “middle east”.
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It does if you consider the very real geographical and geological basis! Europe borders the rest of Asia by the Ural mountains and straits seperating it from Asia Minor. Now what natural borders define the “Middle East”??

quote:
——————————————————————————–
And how exactly does this differ from “middle east”? Neither Europe or Middle-East are continents of their own.
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But geologically Europe is a subcontinent in that it essentially is a continent of its own that was once seperate eons ago but later fused to the rest of Asia, so too is the case with India. What about “Middle East”? You cannot say the same about this political region.
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Posts: 10492 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005 | IP: Logged |

Marc Washington
Member
Member # 10979

Member Rated:
posted 30 November, 2007 04:40 AM
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Here are other images of the population in Mesopotamia before the deluge from the Steppes swept them away:

http://www.beforebc.de/400_neareast/02-16-500-SM.akk-57-050-08.html

http://www.beforebc.de/400_neareast/02-16-500-SM.bab-01.html
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Posts: 441 | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged |

Marc Washington
Member
Member # 10979

Member Rated:
posted 30 November, 2007 05:59 AM
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The thread deals with Africa, Semites, and the Near East. There is the possibility, or rather, history supports the fact that these three (before whites at any given stage entered theses societies) are one; and were the founding peoples and civilization of Europe as well:

http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-500-00-07.html
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Posts: 441 | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged |

Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
posted 30 November, 2007 08:01 AM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Doug M:
The point that you are missing Mr. Winters is that the Anu were not the same as the San people. They may have been small statured, but that does not make them San. Just like Pygmies are not san people either, even though they are both indigenous African groups. The Anu were quite possibly closer to the Anu than the San, but seeing as no skeletal remains of these “anu” has been provided, how do we determine the relationship? Those skeletons referenced in the 1930s must still be around somewhere.
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What makes you so sure they are not the Anu? Please cite the craniometric differences between the Natufians and the San and Khoisan people that lead you to this conclusion.

.
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Primarily because the ANU no longer EXIST, while the pygmies and San people DO EXIST and ARE NOT the same. That is why Pygmies are pygmies and San are San. Just because all three groups were short statured people DOES NOT MAKE THEM the same people, culturally, linguistically or ethnically.
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Posts: 2434 | Registered: May 2005 | IP: Logged |

Clyde Winters

Member
Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 30 November, 2007 08:17 AM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Doug M:
The point that you are missing Mr. Winters is that the Anu were not the same as the San people. They may have been small statured, but that does not make them San. Just like Pygmies are not san people either, even though they are both indigenous African groups. The Anu were quite possibly closer to the Anu than the San, but seeing as no skeletal remains of these “anu” has been provided, how do we determine the relationship? Those skeletons referenced in the 1930s must still be around somewhere.
——————————————————————————–

What makes you so sure they are not the Anu? Please cite the craniometric differences between the Natufians and the San and Khoisan people that lead you to this conclusion.

.
——————————————————————————–

Primarily because the ANU no longer EXIST, while the pygmies and San people DO EXIST and ARE NOT the same. That is why Pygmies are pygmies and San are San. Just because all three groups were short statured people DOES NOT MAKE THEM the same people, culturally, linguistically or ethnically.
——————————————————————————–

Archaeologist compared the skeletal remains of San and Khoisan people in South Africa and the ancient peoples of Europe and Asia, that is how it was determined that the same people who live in South Africa where spread throughout the world thousands of years ago.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. For example, Egyptians no longer exist as a monolithic group but linguuistics and anthropology have have shown us that they are related to Africans now living in other parts of Africa, in addition to the Coptic people who, in many cases fail to look phenotypically like the ancient Egyptians depicted in ancient Egyptian art.

Moreover, we may never really know the language spoken by the pygmies who have been found on every continent: the Americas, Africa and Asia. This is due to the fact that the languages they speak is usually the language spoken by majority population they live among.
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Posts: 2509 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

Neith-Athena
Member
Member # 10040

Rate Member posted 30 November, 2007 11:59 AM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by alTakruri:
No doubt about certain of them being Kushites.
Kushite was ancient vernacular for what we call
black when we speak of black people or blackfolks.
Major doubt about any of them being “colonies”
from the greater continental African landmass.
Of course Colchians are the exception being
that they were described in classical times
as an exode from Egyptian army (but what of
their womefolk? I mean Medea was ???).

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Djehuti:
The only fallacy now is Winters claiming that all these black peoples were Africans or “Kushites”. The Sumerians and Elamites were NOT African Kushites and neither were the Dravidians despite the fact that they are all black.

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——————————————————————————–

I was just about to write a post about that. We read Medea in one of my classes, and reading about her being from Colchis, then remembering what Herodotus said about them, I wondered whether she was Black or had Black ancestry. The English translation had no mention of ethnic reference. She kicks ass in the play, but I am not exactly sure I want a mother who kills her own children to be Black, as Black women already get enough bad press, with welfare mothers and all.
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Posts: 102 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Member Rated:
posted 30 November, 2007 04:09 PM
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^ The story that she kills her own children is a later rendition of the legend no doubt made by Greeks to further deomonize her. In earlier accounts, her children were murdered by political enemies of her marriage to Jason. Notice that in the story she was not only a princess but a high-priestess with great mystical power. It was only in later times that Greek men made her into an “evil witch” capable of killing her own children out of spite.

You’re right that in all the accounts (at least those I’ve read) there were no ‘racial’ or physical descriptions of her other than that she was beautiful.

Getting somewhat back to the topic why is there such a comparison in stature between San and Pygmies?? Yes, San are generally short but NOT like Pygmies which are much shorter thus the description ‘Pgymy’!
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Posts: 10492 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005 | IP: Logged |

tooSleepy
Junior Member
Member # 14307

Rate Member posted 01 December, 2007 03:38 AM
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This Akkadian hooked nose mask gives me Saudi vibe.

Saudi Men

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Posts: 12 | Registered: Oct 2007 | IP: Logged |

Clyde Winters

Member
Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 01 December, 2007 08:57 AM
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The picture you published regarding the Akkadians is a fake. It looks more “Saudi” because the artist’s who made the mask was trying to make it fit the contemporary people who live in the area.
Below you can compare the original and fake mask. The nose of the original is not hooked.
.

.

Sargon
Original

Fakes

.

.

Naram-Sin Original
.

.
Fake

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Posts: 2509 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

Mike111
Member
Member # 9361

Rate Member posted 01 December, 2007 10:39 AM
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Sleepy; were you seriously trying to suggest that the current rulers of Arabia are the indigenous people? Maybe you also think that current Iraqis, Iranians, Egyptians, Libyans, and those in the place now called Turkey are also indigenous people. Try Turks, with a little Greek and Roman thrown in – and the resultant mixtures.
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Posts: 48 | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged |

Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
posted 01 December, 2007 04:26 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The picture you published regarding the Akkadians is a fake. It looks more “Saudi” because the artist’s who made the mask was trying to make it fit the contemporary people who live in the area.
Below you can compare the original and fake mask. The nose of the original is not hooked.
.

.

Sargon
Original

Fakes

.

.

Naram-Sin Original
.

.
Fake

——————————————————————————–

Mr. Winters all of those images are of the same person and none of them are different from one another. This is a blatantly false misrepresentation of the artifacts that does not show what you are implying, which is any FAKE forms of these statues or busts that you can single out as being more “arab” like.

This is a lie and the post is nonsense.
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Posts: 2434 | Registered: May 2005 | IP: Logged |

Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Member Rated:
posted 01 December, 2007 05:08 PM
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^ LOL What else do you expect from Winters?
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Posts: 10492 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005 | IP: Logged |

tooSleepy
Junior Member
Member # 14307

Rate Member posted 02 December, 2007 03:15 AM
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lol Winter
Sorry dude it is the same mask with the impressed nose tip and his straight hair commend to a bun.

Sleepy; were you seriously trying to suggest that the current rulers of Arabia are the indigenous people? Maybe you also think that current Iraqis, Iranians, Egyptians, Libyans, and those in the place now called Turkey are also indigenous people. Try Turks, with a little Greek and Roman thrown in – and the resultant mixtures.

Haplogroup J
30000 thousand years not enough?
Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Near East (Semino et al. 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I, as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup IJ is in turn derived from Haplogroup F. The main current subgroups J1 and J2, which now account between them for almost all of the population of the haplogroup, are both believed to have arisen very early, at least 10,000 years ago.

Actually Europeans are the ones who are partly Middle Eastern spin-offs.
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Posts: 12 | Registered: Oct 2007 | IP: Logged |

Clyde Winters

Member
Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 02 December, 2007 08:44 AM
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The figure you posted is a fake as demonstrated above.

Haplogroup J could not have arisen in the Middle East around 30,000 years ago because the area was still occupied by Neanderthals. Moreover, around this time the Cro-Magnon people who were expansing eastward from Iberia carried the N haplogroup.

Moreover the J haplogroup is also found among the Ethiopians. Given the linguistic evidence that the Akkadians and Ethiopians were closely related suggest supports the Africaness of these people, not Arabness.

.

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by tooSleepy:
lol Winter
Sorry dude it is the same mask with the impressed nose tip and his straight hair commend to a bun.

Sleepy; were you seriously trying to suggest that the current rulers of Arabia are the indigenous people? Maybe you also think that current Iraqis, Iranians, Egyptians, Libyans, and those in the place now called Turkey are also indigenous people. Try Turks, with a little Greek and Roman thrown in – and the resultant mixtures.

Haplogroup J
30000 thousand years not enough?
Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Near East (Semino et al. 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I, as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup IJ is in turn derived from Haplogroup F. The main current subgroups J1 and J2, which now account between them for almost all of the population of the haplogroup, are both believed to have arisen very early, at least 10,000 years ago.

Actually Europeans are the ones who are partly Middle Eastern spin-offs.
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Posts: 2509 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

Clyde Winters

Member
Member # 10129

Member Rated:
posted 02 December, 2007 10:37 AM
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This the original picture you posted it has nothing to do with the figure I posted. Note that the left eye in the figure you posted was normal, whereas the left eye in the figure below is missing. You should be ashamed of yourself. But like most Eurocentrists you don’t mind lying to advance a LIE.

.

.

.

.

quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by tooSleepy:
This Akkadian hooked nose mask gives me Saudi vibe.

Saudi Men

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Posts: 2509 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

alTakruri

Member
Member # 10195

Member Rated:
posted 02 December, 2007 11:08 AM
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Those aren’t different bust profiles.
The image was mirror flipped, that’s all.
Besides publishers mistakenly doing it
anyone with PhotoShop or Picasso or etc., can do it too.
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Posts: 3354 | From: the Takrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged |

Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Rate Member posted 02 December, 2007 01:59 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Sumerians were conquered by the Akkadians the Akkadians spoke a Semitic language. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Akkadians originated in the Sudan,migrated across East Africa into Arabia and replaced the Sumerians as the dominate group in Mesopotamia.
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Evergreen Posts:

Domesticated Animals from Early Times by Juliet Clutton-Brock

Author(s) of Review: Juris Zarins
The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 45, No. 4 (Autumn, 1982), pp. 251-253

“The possibility of cattle pastoralism’s having originated in conjunction with early agricultural practices in southern
Egypt must now be seriously considered along with the possible diffusion of Neolithic cattle
pastoralism into the Sahara, south to East Africa, and across the Red Sea to the SinaiINegev and the Arabian peninsula.”
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Posts: 655 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006 | IP: Logged |

Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Rate Member posted 02 December, 2007 02:07 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by tooSleepy:

Haplogroup J
30000 thousand years not enough?
Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Near East (Semino et al. 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I, as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup IJ is in turn derived from Haplogroup F. The main current subgroups J1 and J2, which now account between them for almost all of the population of the haplogroup, are both believed to have arisen very early, at least 10,000 years ago.

Actually Europeans are the ones who are partly Middle Eastern spin-offs.
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Evergreen Writes:

What is the correlation between the evolution of modern Eurasian phenotype and haplogroup J. Cranial and genetic evidence indicates that the earliest Europeans shared phenotypic traits with modern and ancient Sub-Saharan Africans.
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Posts: 655 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006 | IP: Logged |

Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Rate Member posted 02 December, 2007 02:20 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]I agree that Sumerians, like the Kemetians, referred to themselves as Blacks, that this reference is and always has been *ethnic* in character, and that this fact is so disturbing to Eurocentric racists, that they have gone to laughable lengths to invent alternate *explanations*, which for the most part, they don’t actually believe in, but assert effectively as pro-forma propaganda.
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Evergreen Writes:

It seems most probable that two types existed in the Tigres-Euphrates area by the early neolithic – a modified “Australoid” type that was spread from Australia, through India and into the vicinity of modern Iran/Iraq. There was also a semitic element that spread out of Africa and around the so-called fertile cresent during the early Holocene. A third, chariot-wielding element may have entered the region during the Bronze Age.
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Posts: 655 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006 | IP: Logged |

Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Rate Member posted 02 December, 2007 03:37 PM
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quote:
——————————————————————————–
Originally posted by Evergreen:
[QUOTE]
It seems most probable that two types existed in the Tigres-Euphrates area by the early neolithic – a modified “Australoid” type that was spread from Australia, through India and into the vicinity of modern Iran/Iraq. There was also a semitic element that spread out of Africa and around the so-called fertile cresent during the early Holocene. A third, chariot-wielding element may have entered the region during the Bronze Age.
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Evergreen Writes:

Further to this point, it seems that populations stretching from Senegal to Australia shared in the common M1 mtDNA lineage. These populations were Black and known as Eastern and Western Ethiopians (Blacks) by ancient Eurasians. These Black populations also seemed to have recognized their own Blackness with references to Kush/Kham/Ham/Kish evolving in relation to the emergence of chariot-wielding elements that may have entered the region during the EBA.
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Posts: 655 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006 | IP: Logged |

Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Rate Member posted 02 December, 2007 04:13 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Evergreen:
[QUOTE]

Further to this point, it seems that populations stretching from Senegal to Australia shared in the common M1 mtDNA lineage.
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Evergreen Writes:

In fact, this is where I would lean more toward the Clyde Winters/Marc Washnington camp. Not so much that I believe the Olmec were Nubians who fled the Nile when the Ptolmies closed down the temples in Aswan or that the Sumerians were ancient chariot-riding mandingoes from the Sahara. But I do believe that Europeans are closely aligned with Africans based upon the linear knowledge (science, mathematics, religion, writing, etc.) Africans imparted to Europeans during the current Quran (Holocene). Likewise, I believe Black-Asians are closely aligned with Africans based upon the instinctive knowledge (memory of Australian Aborigines) they took with them when they left Africa during the UP. Unlike northern Eurasians, Black-Asians RETAINED this African instinct in tandem with an essentially African physiology.
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A FORUM ON “THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION”BY CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS ON MELANET.COM

November 20, 2007

FROM melanet.com

“The Destruction of Black Civilization” BY: Chancellor Williams—This is the FIRST book EVERYONE should read conscerning black history!!!

——————————————————————————–
MELANET UnCut Chat and Discussion: When Black Men Ruled The World (On Africentrism): “The Destruction of Black Civilization” BY: Chancellor Williams—This is the FIRST book EVERYONE should read conscerning black history!!!
——————————————————————————–
By MartinCruse on Friday, March 10, 2000 – 04:31 am:
This is the definitive book to read if you want to
know the truth about black history!!

yeah yeah i know you have heard that before but
take my word for it this time trust me. I thought
I knew pretty much everthing (or at least the jist
of it) about black history till i read this!!

I know alot about our history but their were still
unanswered questions that most black history books
were not addressing. I’ve found them in this book.

This book contains all the information Henry Louis
Gates Jr. didn’t have the courage to say in his
Eurocentic black history tv series that was on
television!!! Many afrocentric scholars demanded
that they show and “honest” version of black
history instead of the farce that Gates displaid
for the world to see.

FOR EXAMPLE:

1. We know that the Egyptians were not caucasion
or “white”…thats been established. But were
they….ARAB? Thats what the people look like
there now anyways. So they weren’t white or black
but ARAB. But the Arabs invaded Africa just like
the Europeans did didn’t they.
Arabs even started the invasion (i think) and
were MAJOR holders in the intercontinental slave
trade weren’t they!?!?!

Hmmmmmm……

2. There is a huge dessert that currently
separates North and South Africa. Its called the
Sahara. Eurocentric scholars have used the desert
as a means of saying that the Egyptians were a
separate people and culture from the rest of
Africa. “Sub-Saharan” is the term that they use i
believe.

But evidence has been found that the Sahara was
once rich with plant life and water making it
perfectly inhabitable for people to inhabit it.
And by doing so connecting the imaginary barrier
between Egypt and the rest of Africa.

So was the Sahara ALWAYS a desert? And how did it
become a desert in the first place?…

hmmmmmmm…..

All these questions and more are answered in this
book

WRITE DOWN THIS ISBN NUMBER AND TAKE IT TO YOUR
NEAREST BOOKSTORE: 0 883 780 305

“The Destruction of Black Civilization”= by:
Chancellor Williams

and once again, the ISBN number: 0 883 780 305

Write the number down and give it to them. It’ll
make it easier to find the book

Knowledge is Power!!!!!!
Martin

——————————————————————————–
By White Boy on Thursday, March 16, 2000 – 09:55 am:
Afrocentrism is a joke!

Black africans haven’t established ONE advanced civilization on their own. Egyptians are NOT black, they are more Arab than anything so blacks cannot take credit for that civilization either.

Let’s face it Blacks are infirior to all other races. How? Well simply put, Black Africans are the only race that cannot succeed in Ameria on their own. Even with Affirmative Action, Africans struggle to succeed in a country where all other races have been tremendously prosperous.

Anyone who supports Afrocentrism is a fool. You need to realize that Africans should stop their complaining and start adopting Western ideals in order to succeed in this world. If you do not, blacks will just be what they always have been: poor and under developed

——————————————————————————–
By MartinCruse on Thursday, March 16, 2000 – 01:16 pm:
OOOOOO HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE LIES.

First of all, africans are divided and suffering so much today because we were colonized by Europeans and Arabs. And to colonize Africans used and old techinque of…

DIVIDE AND CONQUER!!!! When we are fighting amongst ourselves we are not focussing on the real problem…Europeans with their Christianity and Arabs with their Islam.

We have created no civilizations huh? lol yeah they tried to feed me that crap in history class also. Just because Arabs are there now doesn’t mean they always have been. The Arabs invaded Egypt just like the greeks/romans did. They also participated in the slave trade. So all in all they are just as hippocritical as Europeans are concerning black history.

All of the Greek classicists describe them as black (herodutus, aristotle, ect., ect.) But all this has been said before…..”whiteboy.” Its getting repetitive now. If you have any doubts….look at the sphinx. Look at the brrrrooooaaaad nose and lick long lips it has. Even though they were shot off u can still make out its “africoid” facial features.

And have u actually read any of the afrocentric books? Or are you just making blind ignorant statements to suit your own greedy needs?

And p.s. everthing in the west originated in the EAST!!! Western civilizations is built on lies and deciet and GREED!

But we all know this already…

So now that you have been corrected….go by the CLEGG SERIES video, crawl back into the ignorant/ destructive/capitalist/backstabbing/European lies filled hole you came from and shut up
CAUSE GROWN FOLKS ARE TALKING!

——————————————————————————–
By ignore_the_devil on Thursday, March 16, 2000 – 01:30 pm:
Peace, be still, brothers and sisters, do not let the devil get the best of you. “It” is inciting you to a riot. Peace, be still!

——————————————————————————–
By ruff on Thursday, March 16, 2000 – 01:50 pm:
infirior?…no spell check on webtv,huh whitebread?

——————————————————————————–
By White Boy on Friday, March 17, 2000 – 10:41 am:
Gee sorry RUFF I don’t have spell checking. Apparently you don’t either. Isn’t it supposed to be rough?

It is simple to answer all those points you made.

The greeks could easily misake an Arab and say he or she was black. Look at arabs for goodness sake, some of them are so dark they are blacker than some blacks. So no problem there.

And sorry I disagree with you on the Sphinx it doens’t look negroid to me. But maybe I’m wrong, I’ll admit I didn’t see who built the thing. If you can prove to me that blacks built it, then I’d agree with you. But the fact remains that NOBODY can really say who built the sphinx, and I’d have an easier time believing it was built by aliens.

And ha ha I guess the black race is so honest and upright? You never get greedy or lie? You have never destroyed another tribe or made war on them back in your days in Africa? And I guess I’m so corrected now that I’ll just crawl away back to my slimey mud hole right? HA HA HA HA!!!

If you think Africa was so great, then get out of my counrty and go back to your sick, poor, AIDS infested, anarchy ridden, Africa?

White Boy

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By Edward Parker on Saturday, March 18, 2000 – 10:03 am:
Their is evidence allover this planet that original man or homo sapien sapien was the black man.. In la Venta Mexico with statues negroid stoneheads,with black Buddha with thick lips in India,china etc..Grimaldi who roam ed Europe for 40,000yrs BC,Tua man in north america,the egyptian black god Osirus…Chang dynasty which consisted of the black dwarf from interior Akebulan…I need not continue for those of any intellectual capacity know the truth..and the truth will set you free!!!!!

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By MartinCruse on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 – 02:55 am:
No i think u need to prove to ME that they were
anything other than black.

But yes i admit…Europeans aren’t the only ones
that lie. But you guys seem to have turned it into
an art form. Your the ones who invented the
political weapon of Misiformation. Your the ones
who got the ball rolling on the destruction of the
environment. YOUR the ones who have colonized the
WORLD with your own narrowminded beliefs and
religions. But i digress…your are right….a
liar is a liar…no matter how often he does or
does not commit a lie. But the balance definitely
leans toward Europeans thats for sure. Hell you
own like 70% percent of the world’s currency. You
don’t get that kinda cheese with hard work and
honesty NO WAY!!! That power was achieved through
manipulation and deciet.

Most proof of black Egypt comes from Greeks/romans
and even the pharoahs who were alive at the time.
I find it fitting irony that the alot of the proof
comes from White peoples’ ancestors themselves
lol. They describe them as dark skinned with flat
noses, full lips, and kinky hair like sheeps
wool!!! SHEEPS WOOL!!!! Get some sheeps wool and
think about whose hair it most represents.

There are also quotes from the pharoahs
themselves. You would have to know a little bit
of the history to put this one together though.
There is another all black civilization called
Nubia that lies south of Egypt. Afrocentric
scholars have always claimed that the Egyptians
were immigrants from Nubia. This is proven by the
fact that The Egyptians THEMSELVES describe
Nubia/the south as their place of origin. They
frequently went to the nubians for supplies or
assistance in whatever. Today, because of violent
sand storms…there is a dessert separating nubia
and Egypt. It is called the Saharah. So in order
to discredit Africans of our classical
civilizations so they can justify
slavery/colonialism….Racist Egyptologist
invented the term “Sub-Saharan” Africa. In other
words….all the niggers are down south while the
civilized white/arab Egyptians lie up north. The
Sahara was not always a dessert. This has been
proven. Egyptoligist are finding out that Egypt
maybe even older than they originally thought.
They found water erosion on the Sphinx!!! That
means There could have been connection between
north and South if that kind of drastic weather
changes happened (i.e. floods, SANDSTORMS, ect.
ect. ect.)!!!
But i Imagine all the hard proof in the world will
not change a mind that wants to justify its hate.

BUT YOU CAN READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE:

http
://www.he.net/~skyeagle/afro1.htm

go to the “Greek Quotes” section..very interesting

Arabs…even the darkest of them, (who are
considered blacks anyway by lighter skinned Arabs
ironically) have straitened hair like Europeans.
So yes they WOULD be able to tell the difference.
Arabs invaded Egypt many, many, centuries later in
the history of Kemet (Egypt).
And not all blacks have those fleshy facial
features either. Our variatioins seem almost
endless….after all…Blacks are the first
hue-ma

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By Soulbrother on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 – 11:49 am:
All of these beautiful, accurate, fact-filled, historical words, wasted on a poor, ignorant, racist White Boy, who would not see the truth if it hit him/her/it like a brick, in the face …..

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By perfect on Wednesday, March 22, 2000 – 05:09 pm:
Not wasted at all soulbrother I was reading all of this and I have learned from it.

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By hiplashone on Friday, March 24, 2000 – 11:37 pm:
Oh no ,not at all wasted!
I am printing all of this knowledge, and I am making copies and giving them to my neighbors, family and friends. And guess what~~~~can’t nobody stop me. So to all dropping knowledge;KEEP KEEPING ON! Soon every Black boy and girl will know about the Afrocentric experience and thier traditions, as long as you all keep posting, I’m going to keep printing it and telling the people I know, for that domino affect. Thanks.

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By Jerrold ( – 151.200.108.30) on Friday, March 24, 2000 – 04:34 pm:
Thanks, HipLaShone. That’s a beautiful way of spreading the word, about how Black people need to be knowledgeable and proud of who we are.

Keep on keeping on. Thanks again.

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By somosunafamilia ( – 129.81.185.75) on Friday, March 24, 2000 – 09:02 pm:
We seem to have forgotten the original post.
The Destruction of Black Civilization is probably the best book that I’ve been exposed to.
It was told to me that people know what they are against but they don’t know what they are for.
I said that to say don’t entertain the european too much, for it is a waste of time. Find out what you are for and move on it. And right now we should be for reading the Destruction of Black Civilization, then come with some of that good planning that is in there.

“Two birds fought over a kernel and a third flew away with it.”

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By Kegimni ( – 64.82.98.1) on Monday, May 29, 2000 – 12:36 am:
I’d like to add my two cents. To understand White Boy’s psyche, you must read a book by Michael Bradley called “Iceman Inheritance”. It speaks volumes of the inherent aggressiveness white men have toward women and others who do not resemble them. Rember brothers and sisters in order for you to educate you must know thyself and thy enemy.

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By JAB ( – 138.26.16.161) on Tuesday, June 13, 2000 – 05:15 pm:
The Destruction of Black Civilization was required reading for a history class I took in college. The Black professor told me that he never had so many (white) students angry with him. This book, along with the Bible which was used as a historical reference, proved that beyond a doubt that Blacks had produced one of the greatest cultures in Egypt along w/ other great civilizations such as Nubia,Babylon,Ethiopia,and India)and w/o the assistance of Europeans or Arabs.

By greg ( – 24.132.81.212) on Monday, June 19, 2000 – 10:57 am:
PEACE AND LOVE TO ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS FROM ME TO YOU

AND TO JAB YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT IF YOU TELL THESE WHITES THE TRUE HISTORY THEY DIE AND IMMEDIATLY START IGNORING THE FACTS

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By Bryan Harman ( – 155.31.19.175) on Monday, June 19, 2000 – 05:06 pm:
It is such a shame that the world’s most primitive

people are taking credit for Ancient Egypt.Some afrocentrists have claimed the Greeks called the Egyptians black.As a educated person I this is misleading in the extreme.For example,Greek writers such as Manilius,Arrian,Ammianus Marcelinus,Strabo,and Flavius Philostratus all described the Ancient Egyptians as either “mildly” dark or “somewhat” dark, but never as black.Did Herodotus say the Ancient Egyptians were black?No! Herodotus was trying to find out where a people called the Colchians came from. The Egyptians said to Herodotus that the Colchians came from Pharaoh Sesostris’s army.Herodotus believed this because the Colchians were black skinned and woolly haired.For starters,Herodotus makes no claim that all of the Egyptians had these features and secondly black Nubian mercenaries served in the Egyptian army which would include Pharaoh Sesostris’s army.Last of all Herodotus would be contradicted by all these other writers I have listed.I would like to conclude by making fun of the fact that slavery,Sexual mutilation of women,tribalism,voodoo,and massive illiteracy exist on the world’s most primitive continent known as Africa.All of this while whites can walk on the moon,or celebrate all our other great accomplishments which are impossible for the primitive negro who is considered the world’s most inferior race.

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By foreversearching ( – 204.196.86.112) on Monday, June 26, 2000 – 10:48 am:
Peace Brothas and Sistas

1. Without getting into a long drawn out story of why i let christianity and islam go, which i feel everyone here understands, could someone suggest a few great books on African centered spirituality by us for us.

2. Will uh sista or brotha refer me to a few great sites on “ebonics”.

p.s. i will start reading the Destruction of Black Civilization in uh week.
thanks and peace

foreversearching

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By DJ ( – 63.27.97.209) on Saturday, July 22, 2000 – 10:23 pm:
I appreciate everyones messages. Even the ones from the white people. Their comments help reafirm what I’ve always believed to be true. Think about it, everyone in the Americas are a collection of people from the East (I guess with the exception of Indians, but I don’t know much about that). And everyone in the Americas tend to have their own history except for the decendents of African people living in America. An easy way to control “free slaves” and all of their offspring including grandchildren’s grandchildren (everyone) is through their mind. If they take what we made and claim it as their own and take us away from our origin and our true history and only feed us lies, if we believe it, we then become brainwashed and although we’re considered to be free we are still mind slaves until we are able to break that cycle as a whole. We have to stop automatically believing in everything we hear because the truth exists in us all. I didn’t figure any of this out by reading a book I did it by reasoning (the thing that seperates man from animals) and examining the worlds history as a whole. It’s kind of like a puzzle all we have to do is put the pieces together from things we hear, see, and read. I’m not saying that nothing is wrong with reading books because I think they are great and I definately plan on finding the book mentioned above, because I love it when my gut feelings turn out to be true, and we were all blessed with it, it’s called intuition and it all relates. I hope someone is able to read this and is feeling where I’m coming from. Another example of this is how they took and continue to take our music especially what they call rock and roll it is the same with history, because history repeats itself in all shapes and sizes. Think about it, I’m going to stop now, cause I feel like I’m preaching. One.

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By Martin ( – 205.188.199.189) on Wednesday, July 26, 2000 – 04:01 am:
A Picture of How Ancient Egyptians saw themselves.

There is a carving on a wall in Egypt that
represents the world’s cultures/peoples as the
Kemetians (Egyptians) saw it THEMSELVES.
It has the Greeks, the Arabs, the nubians and the
Kemetians.

Now as u would expect…the greeks look like
whites, the arabs like arabs (orient),
but……wait a minute…..the Nubians and the
Kemetians look EXACTLY the same. Black Skinned
with fleshy facial features and all…..PURE
BLACK.

I will returen later with an address to where u
can view this picture

No peace until Blacks are self sufficient!!!

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By GREG ( – 24.132.81.212) on Wednesday, July 26, 2000 – 03:41 pm:
to every body open your eyes!!!!!!!!!!

Light Is Caused By Friction Which Is A Form Of Chaos And Destruction. In Some Cases, Light Causes Negative Reactions, And I Can Give Examples Of This. When People Rest, Most People Prefer Darkness Over Light, So They Cut Off The Light In Order To Gain Rest. Now, If The Light’s Are Abruptly Cut On While Some One Is In A State Of Slumber, What Is Their Normal Reaction? They Wake-up, Grumpy, Screaming.. “Turn Off The Lights” Or Maybe Even Threaten You! :o) The Light Disturbed The Darkness, The Same Darkness That Brought PEACE. So Darkness And PEACE Go Hand And Hand, or are one in that same.

When A Baby Is In their Mothers Womb There Is No Light There, Thus The Baby Is In A State Of PEACE Or Darkness. When This Same Baby Comes From The Womb And Meets The Light It’s Peace Is Disrupted, So It Begins To Cry! Once Again The Light Is What Disrupts The Darkness/ Peace!

The Most Sacred Things Can Be Found In Darkness, And Most Of The Most Sacred Things Are Only Hidden To Those Who Can’t See Inter-dimensionally. Like The Brain, The Heart, The Mind, All Things Internal, Including Your GOD! When I Say Inter-dimensionally I Mean You Have To Be Able To See Pass Three Dimensions, Which Is Seeing Beyond Persons, Places And Things.

To Say That One Thing Is Good Is To Say That Another Thing Is Bad! Therefore When The Light Came Friction Between Disagreeable (Bad) And Agreeable (Good) Came To Be. And When Disagreeable And Agreeable Came To Be The “I/ Ego” Came To Be, Separating Things From One Another. Oneness/ Togetherness Is The Exact Opposite Of This, But When The “I/ Ego” Was Created A “Here” And “There” Was Also Created. This Same “Here” And “There” Causes The Separation Of Things And Beings, And This Separation Allows Us To Actually Think That We Are Separate From The Things Around Us. But Light Also Brings With It Illusions, And One Of These Illusions Is Separation (I’ness, Here And There)!

One Comes To Realize That Light Is What Truly Blinds Us, While Darkness Brings Peace, Insight And Togetherness. Light Creates The Thought That “I Am Here And You Are There”, And Enables Us To Think We Are Separate Or Maybe Even Better Than The Things Or People Around Us. When One Comes Into The Fold Of Supreme Darkness/ Supreme Balancement, One Looks Beyond The Light Into The Darkness And Sees That We Are All From One Source And One Force. One Can See That We Are All In “ALL”! We Are One With “ALL” And “ALL” Is One With Us! You Are Not A Special Individual, But A Vital Part Of One Source. It Doesn’t Matter If You Call That Source GOD, Allah/ Ilah, Eloh/ Elohim, Adonai, Osirus, Anu, YHWH Or Jehovah, They All Are A Part Of “ALL”.

So, To Answer The Question Of “Why Would GOD Dwell In Darkness” Is Simple! Because There Is Peace In Darkness, And All Things Come From Darkness. An Example Of This Is COLOR! A Combination Of All Colors Create Black/ Darkness. It Would Then Be Safe To Say That For All Colors To Be, They Must Have Come From Black/ Darkness. So It Would Make A Lot Of Sense That The Bible Would Say GOD Created All Things From The Darkness He Was In, Because Blackness Is The Supreme Balancement Of All Things.

Even In The Bible The Evil One Is Called The “Morning Star” (symbolic of bright brilliant light)! Why not the dark star or the night star? The Evil One Is Also Called The “Illuminated One”, And Is Where The Term “Illuminati” Comes From. So From What We Can See Here, It’s The Light That Cannot Comprehend The Peace Of Blackness, And The Blackness Is Our Key To Peace. It’s The Light That Is Disagreeable, And The Blackness Is Truly Benevolent!

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By IRASTA ( – 195.121.227.104) on Sunday, September 3, 2000 – 01:15 pm:
GREETINGS IN THE NAME OF THE MOST HIGH JAH RASTAFARI HAILE SELASSIE THE FIRST.

THE PROBLEM OF THE BLACK MAN IS THE BLACK MAN HIM SELF.
WHEN HE WILL ACKNOWLEDGE SELASSIE I AS GOD ALMIGHTY, AND NOT THE WHITE JESUS.

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By DARKAND SERIOUS AFRICAN ( – 12.72.64.78) on Thursday, September 7, 2000 – 05:47 am:
EARTH TOO IRASTA, HAILE AIN’T EVEN LOVED BY TO MANY ETHIOPIANS,SO SAVE US THE BS ABOUT HIM BEING GOD. THERE IS NO GOD,SO STOP SPENDING YOUR YRS DREAMING OF ONE. WE ARE THE ONLY GODS WE NEED TO SAVE OURSELFS. ALL CULTS LEAD TO BACKWARDNESS AND DISUNITY. WE ARE OUR OWN SAVIORS,NOT A MAN WHO WASN’T EVEN LOVED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE WHO HE DID SO LITTLE FOR THE MASSES . IF YOUR HONEST YOU’D ADMIT THAT ETHOPIANS ARE SOME OF THE MOST REACTINARY AND RACIST ACTING AFRICANS IN THE WORLD TODAY. THEY HAVE NO RESPECT FOR ALL THE MYTHOLOGICAL THINGS THAT YOU SO BADLY WANT TO BELIEVE IN.IF YOU WENT THERE THEY WOULD LAUGH AT YOU FOR YOUR IGNORANCES OF JUST WHO AND WHAT THE MAN WAS.
YOU PROBABLY THINK I’M AGAINST YOU,YOUR WRONG. WHAT I’M AGAINST IS ANY FORM OF CULTS OF PERSONALITY AROUND ANY HUMAN BEING,IT’S A WASTE OF TIME.

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By HRH-DARKOVERLORD WATCHING OVER YA ( – 12.72.3.43) on Thursday, September 7, 2000 – 07:37 pm:
Iregular rasta;this is the 2nd time I’ve posted a message to you,it seems unGrand La grand is playing at being a censor again.
What I said was the following ;stop with the stupid myths concerning Haile,cuz he isn’t a god nor is he that respected by his own people. Yes he stood up to the europeans,that was his finest hr.
In our quest to escape the racist colonialism ,we have made hero’s out of anyone who stood up to the white power system,that was good. The problem started when ya felt the need to make of all people Haile more then what he was a feudal dictator.
If your aware of the brief history of Rastafari,you know how resent all of this has been ,not even a 100 yrs.
If you know anything about Ethopia you’d know that they are some of the most reactionary Africans on the continent,toward other Africans.They have what can best be termed as racist attiudes towards othe people of African decent. If you think they would feel postive about your worshiip of Selesie then you really don’t do much traveling.
When people don’t see a why out of their bondage and are powerless they create what s called cults,that later become so-called relgions,this is what the whole Rasta movement is about.
I’ve been wearing locks since 1974,I’ve talk to countless Jamincans. Some like the idea others who are more inclined to follow their past white masters hated all Rasta’s and everything they stood for. This is not my postion,there are postive messages to be learned from any ideology.The pt is where do you leave off the myths and other false teachings that do nothing to push us further toward our goals of mental and physical liberation. Your probably thinking if he ain’t for Seleasie he’s against I AND I,not so. All cults from christiantiy to islam,have the same effect ,to remove us from, the simple fact of what we as Africans must be most aware of.
Ask yourself this question ,have you ever heard of Marcus Garvey proclaiming Haile as some divine savior? We both know the answer to that question,no.
You have a brain and you’ll believe whatever you think can free you from the pain of babalyon. What I want you to understand is this,there are NO GODS, so this means if there are to be changes in our lifes we have to make them. Sooner or later if your a truly concious African you’ll come to this conclusion. On the other hand if this is your drug of choice maybe you’ll never awake from this sleep of the oppressed.
Whatever road you choose ,know this your still my people and I will struggle for your rights like I hope you would mine.

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By GREG ( – 24.132.81.212) on Friday, September 8, 2000 – 01:56 pm:
The Hebrew People of the Bible What Color are They?

For years, people of the world have been led to believe that the people of the bible were white people, when in fact they were black. Hollywood, one of the many contributing factors to this cause, isn’t innocent to this either, they take the front line for the ranks of deception. We the people of the world should not continue to let this occur because the ones to be affected by this will be the children of the future.

Movies, television and some white people portray the people of the bible as white. What should it matter, if they are white or black. Should it matter, if they are white or black? If I were white, I’d say no, and if this was an ideal world and if all affluent people looked like me. But we are living in a world of lies and deception and when the children’s minds develop off of the deception that is being told and taught, then the truth must be brought to the forefront. Also, I am not white and the more affluent doesn’t look like me.

People of color are more vulnerable and are more easily to believe what is being told to them, especially when their history has been erased from their minds, and it is constantly battered in their heads through their educational systems, television, and movie theaters. Well, the time has come for the truth to be told. And what is that truth? That the people of the bible are people of color.

Before I can go forward, I need to go backwards into some history. Lets look at the people of the bible, who had who.

Genesis 10:2-4, Japheth begot Gomer (*Galatians) (**Germany, Crimea, Cambria, Celts), Magog (*Scythians) (**Georgia, Scythians), Madai (*Medes), Javan (*Grecians), Tubal (*Iberes), Meshech (**Moscow), and Tiras. Gomer begot Ashkenaz (*Rheginians) (**Germany, Saxons, Scandavia), Riphath, and Togarmah. Javan begot Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim (**Cyprus) (Abraham ibn Ezra said the Romans were descended from Kittim), and Dodanim. (*denotes The Complete Works of Josephus. **denotes The table of the Nations off the Web)

Genesis 10:6-18, Ham begot Cush (*Ethiopians), Mizraim (*Egypt), Phut (*Libya), and Canaan. Cush begot Nimrod, Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah. Raamah begot Sheba and Dedan. Mizraim begot Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, Casluhim, and Caphtorim. Canaan begot Sidon, Heth, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgasites, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites, and Hamathite.

Genesis 10:22-29, Shem begot Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad (*Chaldeans), Lud, and Aram. Aram begot Uz, Hul, Gether, and Mash. Arphaxad begot Salah. Salah begot Eber. Eber begot Peleg (from here comes the family of Abraham) and Joktan. Joktan begot Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba, Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab
.
And Noah and his wife created Japheth, Ham, and Shem.

After the dispersion of the people by God at the tower of Babel, each went into their own region of the world. Japheth and his family went into Europe. Shem and Ham stayed in the area, so to say.

Mizraim (Egypt) and some of his family went into a land now called Africa, but it wasn’t called Africa then. Cush (Ethiopia) had a very large area which even went into what is now called Middle East. Remember, Nimrod was a Cushite and the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Around 1913BCE, there was a famine in the land. And due to the famine, Abram (Abraham) and his wife Sarai journeyed to the land of Egypt. But before he entered the land of Egypt he said to Sarai, “Behold now, I know that you art a fair woman to look upon. And it will come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they will say: This is his wife; and they will kill me, but thee they will keep alive.”

Now the incident came to pass, but Rabbi Shelomoh Yitschaki, Solomon ben Isaac, also known as Rashi, said in his commentaries, reference behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman, “Knowing that you are beautiful, I realize that your beauty is now a source of danger, particularly since the Egyptians are dark-skinned and ugly.” Besides this being a ridiculous comment, the point that I am trying to point out is the fact that the Rabbi has stated that the Egyptians were people of color. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines black as, “Having a dark skin . . . ” and “a person belonging to a dark skinned race . .

. ” This may seem irrelevant now, but this quote by Rashi is going to back fire on him. Stick with me. Also at least they have finally admitted that the Egyptians were people of color.

Next, Joseph, one of the twelve sons of Jacob, from the twelve tribes of Israel, was sold to some Ishmaelites by his brothers out of anger. The Ishmaelites took Joseph into Egypt and sold him to the Egyptians. Later a famine had struck the land of Egypt and Canaan and according to the Bible all the lands and was very devastating. Jacob instructed several of his sons to go into Egypt and buy food because Egypt had enough to sell.

When the brothers of Joseph, the sons of Jacob had entered the land of Egypt, they were told to see a particular person. Not knowing oh the individual was they were going to see, when they faced him, they didn’t recognize him, but Joseph recognized them. If Joseph is supposed to be a white person, and he was in the mist of black people, don’t you think his brothers would have recognized him immediately. Why didn’t his brothers recognize him immediately? Could it have been due to him being black amongst black people and he blended in? A white person definitely would have been able to be pointed out if he was amongst black slaves during slavery time. Don’t you think?

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By GREG ( – 24.132.81.212) on Friday, September 8, 2000 – 01:56 pm:
Next, while the Israelites were living in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh had commanded for all the Israelite males to be exterminated. Now during this time, a couple from the Israelite people had borne a son, and they had hid him for three months. When they couldn’t hide him no longer, she put the child into a basket and placed it among the reeds by the bank of the Nile. The daughter of Pharaoh, wanting to bathe in the Nile, went to the banks and saw the basket among the reeds and when she opened the basket she saw a baby in it. Being that the baby was very young, she instructed a Hebrew family, coincidently the baby’s mother, to nurse the child until he was weaned. Once he was weaned, she brought the boy to her father and asked if she could keep the child, and her father said yes. Also, the baby was named Moses.

Remembering that the Egyptians were black, if Moses was white and knowing that Pharaoh had issued a decree to kill all the Hebrew males, wouldn’t he have killed Moses immediately when she brought this supposedly white child into her father’s house? Also, if he was white, do you think Pharaoh’s daughter would have even let the child live when she found him by the Nile? Obviously we must say no.

Finally, Moses lived amongst the Egyptians for years and one day when he saw an Egyptian abusing a Hebrew, he came to the aide of the Hebrew and killed the Egyptian. Knowing that the word would get out and back to Pharaoh, he fled Egypt and went to the land of Midian. Upon entering Midian he came to the aide of some women of the land and helped them. They were very grateful and ran back and told their father that an “Egyptian” saved them.

Again, if he was mistaking for an Egyptian, and knowing that the Egyptians are supposedly dark-skinned and ugly, does this make Moses dark-skinned and ugly too? This is where people need to watch what they say. It may come back to haunt you.

What I have presented here, which is merely speculation. The only proof that I have given where someone has said the Egyptians where black was by the Rabbi. So let me notegive more facts for you to think about.

Herodotus (484? -425? BC) was one of the most widely traveled people of his time. His writings show his interest in both history and geography. Herodotus was born in Halicarnassus, a Greek colony in Asia Minor. He was a frequent visitor to Athens, he was a close friend of Sophocles. He also journeyed to the western shores of the Black Sea, to southern Italy and Egypt, and to the Asian cities of Tyre, Babylon, Ecbatana, Nineveh, and Susa, says the Compton’s Interactive encyclopedia.

During his travels, Herodotus kept a journal of his activities. The journal was later translated, and in one of his entries, he wrote the following about the Egyptians or to be more exact the natives:

” …it is certain that the natives of the country are black . . . ; there can be no doubt that the Colchians are an Egyptians race . . . I made this inquiries on the subject both in Colchis and in Egypt, and I found that the Colchians had a more distinct recollection of the Egyptians, than the Egyptians had of them . . . My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair . . . ”

Now, what I have done here is give a positive identification of the Egyptians. And by me doing this and showing that the Israelites always got mistaken for them, prove that they both, the Egyptians and the Israelites were black people.

You may still have your doubts and desire more evidence before you will acknowledge that the Bibilical Israelites were a black people. So, allow me to continue.
Solomon Grayzel, a white Jewish historian, wrote in his book, A History of the Jews, in the ninth century CE (AD), a man appeared in north Africa among the Hebrews there, his name was Eldad from the tribe of Dan, he was a danite. They said he spoke a strange language and told them a weird story. He said the members of his tribe had escaped Israel after Sennacherib had conquered Israel, and other Hebrews from other tribes also live in the land from where he came from. He told the Hebrews in the northern part of Africa all the law that his people follow, which was given to his tribe by tradition from Moses successor Joshua ben Nun. The Hebrews of the northern part of Africa at first was in question about his story, but threw further examine by the Gaon, he assured the northern African Hebrews the story was legitimate.

I have mentioned this story because Mr Grayzel went on to say, “Some modern scholars argue that Eldad was an Ethiopian Jew, a descendant of the ancient colony which, in the days of Ezra, lived on the southern border of Egypt . . . ” If you know your history, and if you know what color the Ethiopian Jews are, then you have already come to the conclusion that Eldad the Danite, from the tribe of Dan, one of the twelve tribes of Israel was a black man.

Another story that I want to tell you about is in a book entitled “The Hope of Israel,” by Menasseh ben Israel which was published 1652. In it speaks of an incident that occurred with a traveler named Antonio de Montezinos. It says upon Montezinos return from the Americas, it is sufficient here to know that he has found the descendants of the lost ten tribes. At this point, I am going to quote the letter from Menasseh ben Israel to John Dury concerning what he said. The letter was dated 25 November 1649 and it reads, “Curiously enough, in the sixteenth century one Antonio Montesino of Lima stated, according to the writings of Luis Lopez, Bishop of Quito, that The Indians of the islands and mainland of the Indies . . . are Hebrews descended from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel’. And he did say further in his book, “that they keepe their true religion, as hoping to returne again into the Holy land in due time.”

People, if this isn’t enough proof as to say what color the Hebrews were, then you are truly in a state of denial.

Also, as for a pictorial concerning the children of Israel. In a documentary on the Art & Entertainment channel, titled In Search of The Ten Commandments, it showed an ancient hieroglyphic picture of the Israelites while they were slaves in Egypt, and they were black. They looked just like the Egyptians. So I can see why Moses was mistaken for an Egyptian, and why Joseph wasn’t recognized by his brothers.

Finally, I am going to list three passages from the bible identifying the color of the Israelites. They are:
Lamentation 4:8, Their visage (face) is blacker than coal
Lamentation 5:10, Our skin was black like an oven . . .
; And Job 30:30, My skin is black upon me . . .

In this document, I have given enough information proving that the Hebrews are black people. But I say to you all, this isn’t enough. Teach your children the truth!

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By bmawute ( – 206.170.78.254) on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 – 04:12 pm:
To DarkandSerious Afrikan – There is a God. Only you can find him. To Foreversearching – I am sorry to hear that you let Islam go. Islam only means peach and Muslim means submission to the will of God. I believe we all want peace and if you believe in the higher power, submission to him is not a problem, as he only wants what is good for us if we are obedient. Who better to know what is best for you than HE who created you. I also believe all people of color believe in the Creator irregardless of what you call him. He said, “I will be called by many names”. In regards to the European, all we need to do is just leave him alone and stay away from him and he will self destruct and disappear. Black people, stay prayerful, stay focused, continue to study and seek truth and truth will be revealed to you. Black Man Rising!

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By Dark and contemplative ( – 12.72.0.254) on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 – 09:00 pm:
Because i feel you mean well,I’ll refrain from being to harsh with you.
I’m an ATHEIST,I was never involved with Islam,even though I have family members that are. Unlike yourself I don’t feel any need or desire to believe in any form of supreme being. My feels are the following;your need to believe is your drug to ward off the pain of dealing with this insane world we live in.
On the subject of white people I deal with those who are attempting in some concrete way ,to struggle with white racism,the rest I deal with in whatever form they present themselves as.
I have no illusions about all African people being in unity,or even feeling the need for struggle,so the samething applies to them.
Your need for Islam is your need,not my. On things we can agree on I’m more then willing to support and contribute to the dicussion. So welcome to the forum,it’s good to hear from you even though I don’t agree with you ,your input is good.

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By Dark and tired of UNGRAND LEGRAND,the poser! ( – 12.72.0.250) on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 – 03:24 pm:
This is my 2nd attempt at responding to you bmawute.
Ungrand Legrand,who host this forum is a censoring fanatic,he needs to go to a conservative right wing NEGRO site. This isn’t the first time I’ve confronted him about this silliness.He’s suppose to be a historian and a lawyer,yet he can’t deal with certain opinions I have on the topics and response of some of the posters.
This is a stupid idea,trying to control what he thinks others should say,considering that the rest of this site doesn’t feel the need to follow suite.So I don’t expect you’ll see this post either,since UNGRAND IS ACTING LIKE SOME RIGHT WING FACIST!
UNGRANDLegrand if I ever get to confront you ,you can depend on me telling you the same thing face to face.Stop tryna control ideas and opinions.
What I said Bmawute is that I’m an ATHEIST, it doesn’t matter to me what reglious belief you have cause all of it is a form of drugs,for the masses who feel the need to want to believe in something called——–,whatever you want to call it.
Now since this is so threatening to Ungrand LEGRAND,I assume he’s like you a believer in relgious myths. I guess it just shows with all the knowledge of African history and law ,TINY MINDED UNGRAND Legrand still can’t get beyond his antiquated beliefs concerning what’s called religion,so much for giving the appearance of being a progressive African THINKER!

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By Pharoah #1 ( – 199.180.3.66) on Sunday, September 24, 2000 – 11:57 pm:
Hotep

This is just a greeting to my brothers & sisters, not for sick white folks that hate human beings because of their god given features and culture that God Ra blessed us to embrace. The comments made by white boy(peckerwood) is just reminder why we must continue to seek the truth and not settle for historical info. from whites,arabs etc. and that we need to settle our petty differances and truely love each other as africans. Let us not get upset when we here comments from the devil, continue to study and build upon your knowledge that you were blessed by god to receive.

I beleive that brother Dale Jones said it best in his documentary ( The American Nigger Factory ) when you let others get into your culture it is on mickey mouse. Meaning that when you take white folks for chumps and suckers and we let them dictate the course of our community, fianance,history and the education of our children then we have lost the battle for freedom and equallity.

Hotep, kemites.

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By Drew Peters ( – 24.164.152.3) on Sunday, October 1, 2000 – 03:49 pm:
Race is NOT Culture

The differences between an African-American and a white American are infintesimal compared to the differences between an African-American and a Frenchman of African descent. Ask a dark-skinned man from Guadaloupe what he is and he will tell you that he is French. His race is not important to his identity.

Why do Americans of Black West Indian origin and African Americans whose forebears were established in the northern states before the Emancipation Proclamation have income levels typical of caucasians while othe African-Americans do not?

Which of the 7 values of the Kwanzaa holiday are cultural blocks to economic advancement? (None of these are found in all African cultures but can be identified in non-African cultures like India).

Why is Eithiopia so rich in architectural heritage? Why has Ethiopian Airways always been regarded as one of the industries finest? Why are Eithiopian banks so strong?

Why do African-American tourists cry when they are told by West African tour guides that slaves were captured and remained the property of other Africans until delivered to the docks? Why do Africans think the African-American tourist’s reaction is strange?

Why do so many African-Americans have such a strong racial identity? Does this present problems for black immigrants that come from cultural backgrounds less racially defined?

Why does the US have to rely on immigration from India to keep the technology industry strong?

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By Ms. Sprung ( – 206.128.192.142) on Friday, October 20, 2000 – 04:47 pm:
I congratulate people like BMAWUTE for having as the center of his or her message the purpose of “staying focused”, because if we keep falling into the sick games and evident sense of inferiority as shown by the negative contributions some white folks have done, we will fall into their trap and convert this discussion into a war zone, or a source for exchange of insults instead of the determined uplifting purposes it is intended to. For instance, BRYAN HARMAN calls himself and ‘educated person’, but he goes on to state that some Arabs are darker than black people. There is proof that blacks were the first human species on Earth, and remember that the Arabs invaded Egypt, which of course involves racial mixture and explains why there are Arabs who are very dark. You would realize that the world’s black culture is filled with people of different skin tones which go from the lightest cinamon shades to the deepest, sweetest darkest black! Yes, I add sweetest because everytime I set my eyes on a very dark man, I just melt by contemplating such a Godly gift! Oh…when you refer to slavery and sexual violence in Africa, remember that those are actions initiated by whites. Hitler is a perfect example of violence and hatred, and if you want to talk about inferiority, his whole purpose for wanting to exterminate Jews was based on feelings and concepts of inferiority, as well as the caucasian invadors of Africa who envied the strenght of the black man, the beauty and resistance of his skin, not to mention the covetting of the overwhelming physical and spiritual attributes of splendid black women. If you are physically, emotionally and spiritually secure…WHY DO YOU LOOK UPON OTHERS??? WHY BOTHER THEM???? WHY QUESTION THEM??? WHY THE NEED TO DOMINATE THEM???? WHY SO INTREIGUED AND DISGUISINGLY FASCINATED BY THEM IN SO MANY FORMS???? If the Arian Nation was all that, then why trouble the Jews? If Europe and all caucasians were sufficiently secure, why did they need Africans to subject them to slavery, and to help build what we have today? Were white women not enough for them? IF THEY ARE SO PERFECT AND PURE!!!! Why is the world so multi-racial today, with black traits and prints beaming in most regions of the world? Some people just can’t face the fact that the black race is the most underestimated, but influential and intreiguing one in existance. We have always been here. Presently, they still try to put us down, and cleverly promote disputes and conflicts among ourselves, but they will never extinguish us, and the more they try to bring us down, insult us, and discredit us, the more the thruth will emerge, and their fear and intimidation becomes more evident.
GREG, loved your comments on “darkness”! KEGIMI!!! You go, you black beautiful child of God!…because if any athiest reads the Bible he or she will realize that actual world events coincide with what it expresses. Proof is the success of every theory, and what’s going on in Israel and the Middle East is spread out in the Bible, as well as the proof provided by this web site concerning black people beginning civilization!

Ms. Sprung!

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By Know-thy-self ( – 205.188.192.53) on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 – 02:09 am:
What was the point of that last post DREW PETERS?

I notice that whites/househands come to this
site preaching every culture love one another….

But when attempts to make positive/Unifying
Relationships relationships With Continental
Africans are made….They go on a mad frenzy
trying to point out our differences and laying
seeds for devision.

These are basically attempts bye the white culture
to gain the Loyalty of the Black culture. Not our
equality….loyalty. And if we give it to
them…the will joyously use as house hands to
further colonialize and rape the resources of the
richest continent in the world……

AFRICA

Europeans control the ENTIRE continent of Africa.
They devided up the land like a giant pizza…each
Europeans gettin their own little piece (German,
French, English, etc.)

We do have one large similarity…WE BOTH LIVE
UNDER THE SAME EUROPEAN DOMINATION!!!!

and ps
Shallow Capitalism is not a culture. That is the
only thing we have in common Drew peters.

PPS
Please refrain from speaking for blacks in other
parts of the World on what their cultural values
are. You do not reserve the right.
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—-

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By bmawute ( – 206.170.78.254) on Thursday, October 26, 2000 – 03:32 pm:
To Dark and Contemplative – If you do not believe in God or the Higher Power, who do you believe in, and where do you think the human family comes from? You notice that I DID say human, I did not say mankind. Hue means color. Surely you don’t believe in the theory of evolution!

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By bmawute ( – 206.170.78.254) on Thursday, October 26, 2000 – 03:52 pm:
To Know Thy Self – Very well put my brother. Shallow capitalism IS the only thing we really have in common with them. It is amazing how they think that even as we struggle for our true identity, we must have them to help to guide and direct us with this also. How arrogant! Peace and Love.

Black Man Rising!

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By DARK AND EXTREMELY SERIOUS! ( – 12.72.1.40) on Friday, October 27, 2000 – 02:42 pm:
WHO OR WHAT DO I BELIEVE IN YOU ASK. I BELIEVE IN THE BETTER QUALITIES OF THE THINGS THAT CALL THEMSELVES HUMANS.YES I DO BELIEVE IN WHAT’S CALLED EVOLUTION. THE SO-CALLED HUMAN FAMILY COMES FROM THE UNIVERSE.IT IS PART OF ALL THAT IS.
NOW OF COURSE THIS PROBABLY SEEMS TO SIMPLE FOR YOU,TO BELIEVE. WHAT I’VE SEEN FROM YOU TELLS ME YOUR LIKE MOST SO-CALLED SPIRITUAL OR RELGIOUS,PEOPLE YOU SEEK TO MAKE EVERYTHING INTO SOME FORM OF CONVOLUTED MYSTERY LACED WITH ALOT OF MEANINGLESS THEORIES,ABOUT SUPERNATURAL FORCES,WHAT YOU CALL GOD!

TO ME IT’S ALL MEANINGLESS PSYCHO BABBLE,FOR THE MASSES AND THOSE WHO ARE AFRAID OF THE WORLD THEY LIVE IN.SINCE NONE OF THIS MADNESS HAS EVER HAD A POSTIVE AFFECT ON OUR COLLECTIVE STRUGGLES,IT’S MEANINGLESS TO EVEN WASTE MY MIND ON THE TOPIC.

HISTORICALLY RELGIONS HAVE BEEN AND CONTIUNE TO BE VEHICLES TO CONTROL AND MISDIRECT HUMANS. EVEN IN TODAYS WORLD WE SEE IT BEING,PLAYED OUT ALL OF OVER THE WORLD,FROM AFRICA TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

TO ME PHILOSOPHY IS THE MEAT OF DEAD MEN AND RELGIOUS MANIA IS THE BREAD. SO THERE YOU HAVE IT IN A NUT SHELL,REAL SIMPLE AND WITH OUT ALOT OF HOCUS POCUS!

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By MenNefer ( – 152.163.213.47) on Thursday, November 23, 2000 – 02:46 am:
Tua NETER!! MAN..THIS WEB PAGE IS WILD AND REVEALS THE MALAISE THAT RUNS RAMPID AMONGST ALL CULTURES AND FURTHER DELUDES.I HAVE A PROVERB TO OFFER…DO NOT SEEK TO FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THE MEN OF OLD;SEEK WHAT THEY SOUGHT.IN NO WAY AM I GOING TO TRY AND INTIMATE SOME MAGICAL TRANFORMATIVE LINEAR PHRASE TO TRY AND CALIBRATE,FURTHER MORE, CIVILIZE A MIND IN NEED OF SPIRITUAL REMUNERATION,I ONLY WANT TO SAY STOP ARGUING OVER A FALLIABLE STRUCTURE STOP CRYING AND TRYING TO PROVE TO EACH OTHER AD NAUSEUM THE ETHNICITY OF THE ANCIENT ONES ,THOSE WHO TRULY KNOW SHOULD BE PROUD THAT DOGS HAVE CONFLUENCED AROUND THE TABLE TO GET SCRAPS BECAUSE THEY WANT THE TRUTH TOO BUT NOT THE REALITY OF THE CULTURE HMMM THERE WHITE WIG WEARING ANCESTORES SPENT ARDUOUS YEARS TRYING TO PUT A DAMN LABEL ON EVERYTHING AND WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THATS GOING TO STOP,IF YOU WANT TO CHECK ONE OF THESE PSUEDOCONCIOUS NEGROES TRY LIVING THE LAWS OF MA-AT ,LET HER MEANING AND ESSENCE PERVADE YOUR SPHERE OF AWARENESS IF NOT WE KAMAU WE MA-AT KHERU ARE NOT TRYING TO HERE ANYMORE INANE RANTINGS SPEW FORTH FROM YOUR FORKED TOUNGE NO MATTER WHAT SHADE YOU REPRESENTING THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH!!!!!!

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By Darkoverlord;waitng to see what this is all about ( – 12.72.0.107) on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 – 02:45 pm:
In order to communicate a message,you have to speak in words that reflect what it is your trying to say. Speaking metaporically ,doesn’t work for the unenlightened.
Since your here,we have to ask what did ya bring,besides a few expressions frmon the muter neter. Being PADONTIC,serves what purpose,or then to mysitfy ?If ya came with info. then make it seen,if ya came with more deliberate mysicism,we’ve seen it all before.

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By DARKOVERLORD ( – 164.124.250.203) on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 – 11:23 pm:
IT MUST BE BEING EBONICS OR SOMETHING-AND SHE-IT!!

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By Ptah Da Architect ( – 216.42.39.154) on Wednesday, December 6, 2000 – 12:15 pm:
Em Hotep, I have this book & I must say that although I haven’t finished it yet it is a MUST HAVE! I’m not all for wild-out theories on the ethnicity of our ancestors but I am for correcting the wrong and the mis-takes made when portraying us (Africans) to the world. Honestly if you KNOW then it won’t matter about debating who was black & who wasn’t. Mer Ua Em Hotep Ptah

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By Angela Diarberry ( – 24.229.76.95) on Friday, December 8, 2000 – 12:04 am:
I am here because I homeschool my children and want to know what to teach my children about kwanzaa. I have never been taught anything about it. I have a few questions:

1. Does having a separate holiday for black people contribute to the lack of unity among whites and blacks? Isn’t the goal equality rather than constantly pointing out our differences? How will we ever have peace if we don’t “melt” together?
2. Why do black people refer to themselves as African-Americans? Wouldn’t it be more conducive to peace if we just called each other American? I mean, I don’t go around calling myself European American. I did have ancestors who were from European descent, but they were all dead years before I was born and I have no desire to live in Europe. My connections, my patriotism, and my roots are all 100% American.
3. Is it silly for white people to celebrate Kwanzaa? (Similar to how non-Irish people celebrate St. Patrick’s day) Why or why not?

Hopefully we can benefit from good, intelligent dialog.

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By propheTess ( – 204.0.154.135) on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 – 05:32 pm:
To any very confused person: this is for you.

Mathematically, logically and with intelligent reasoning ( as one brother put it earlier on)
you may judge superiority in race by their ability
to survive and endure any circumstance. The being that develops and masters this technique; whether they are literate or not, black, white, red or green,fast or slow,civilized /uncivilized, etc…
This Being of existance (Collectively) is historically far more superior on earth & through
out the Universe. DO THE MATH and STUDY UP ON THAT STORY(NOT HIS STORY)!

KEEP RISING MY BEAUTIFUL BLACK PEOPLE- propheTess

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By Mike E ( – 205.212.150.240) on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 – 10:30 am:
To Angela Diarberry
I would not teach my kids anything about kwanzaa the whole “so called holiday” is nothing but racism, it was a made up holiday to push along racism and if you were to talk to the people that follow this stuff you will find out they hate whites, asian’s, european’s, you will even find out that they even hate black’s that don’t believe there garbage, it’s like this african american stuff, I have asked WHERE is AFRICA AMERICA, and nobody has answered me yet, and the ones that say that the true God of the bible KJV is black have no proof of that, there taking verses out of context, what was Jesus He was a Jew, the earth is only 6000-7000 years old we can prove that, we know the different colors and races started at the tower bable, the bible say’s that but it says nothing of what color Adam was as far as I can find, so no I would not teach your children about kwanzaa it is about hate!!!

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By Blondie ( – 209.46.58.254) on Friday, December 29, 2000 – 03:41 pm:
Wow- to Angela Diarberry- Congrats on teaching your children the importance of different cultures! I am also a white female that is studying up on different cultures/traditions/ roles/race ect. and have questions raised like yours. I hope someone that is open-minded, honest and willing to teach, not preach, can/will answer them. I am interested in seeing the black American’s point of view. I know that I share the same view as in question #2. I could give many of my own answers- but they always tend to lead to more questions! Also, for whites to celebrate Kwanzaa, would it be hipprocritical? I know I wouldn’t celebrate Hannakuh- but that is religious. Kwanzaa carries some very strong points for any culture.
I had to say “wow” at the beginning because of the response from Mike E.. My own personal opinion is that he is an idiot, and an embarrasasment to my race, and should just have his mouth taped and then thrown into a corner. But maybe Angela should show his answer to her children and see what they learn from it. Sometimes studying ignorance can be the best lesson.
I came to this website to learn about Kwanzaa, and end up for the last hour reading through letters about arguements I didn’t even know exsisted/mattered, of frustation, of rage. The arguement of who came first amazes me. To me, it makes sense the black people orginated first. Life will begin to exist where conditions are optimal. Humans started to lose color, “became white,” when they migrated to northern, colder conditions. Dark pigment, fleshy facial features disappeared when they hindered survival in the cooler climates. I don’t agree with the arguement that whites are selfish and greedy, but if you look at it, as a primitive being, living in the cold, snow, having to search for food, don’t you think as a people, it makes sense that whites are more aggressive? And does that really make whites evil? I think it is more of terms of survival of the fittest. I don’t know. Please don’t think I’m trivialising anything, and maybe I am way off base. I’m trying to learn, and unfortunately there is no easy answer. At least not in the US. I just think too many people get caught up on little things, and it becomes whoever can scream the loudest wins.
So anyway- that’s this white girl’s 2 cents.

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By Tjmax ( – 209.240.220.242) on Friday, January 5, 2001 – 02:05 pm:
So many whites have come to black sites to try to discredit afrocentric history,so rather than keep throwing hurtful words back and forth at each other,whitch do not add any insight
to this debate,so am about to bring some insight to the afrocentric debate.I’ll first quote some white scholars and their research and then we can move on to quote the ancient people who saw and understood what they were seening.Now,first we’ll see what some modern whites had to say,then we’ll go on to what the ancient people had to say[from the book The missing pages of his-story by Indus Khamit Kush :Professor Beatrice lumpkin raises a very critical question[why haven’t we been taught that the base of our so-called western civilization was created by the African peoples of Egypt

Two other European historians put it like this:The hisorians R.R.Palmer and joel calton in their massive book A History of the modern world wrote:There was really no Europe in ancient times.Europeans were by no means the pioneers of human civilization.Half of recorded history had passed before anyone in Europe could read or write.The priests of Egypt began to keep written records between 4000 and 3000 B.C.,while the pharaohs were building the frst pyramids,Europeans were creating nothing more distinguishe than huge garbage heaps. Jacques Weulersse,a French historian,in his work L’Afrique Noire compares Africa with Europe and candidly writes:At a time when all Europe was only savagery,when Paris and london were swamps, and Rome and Athens uninhabited sites, Africa already possessed an antique civilization in the valley of the nile;it had populous cities…great public works,sciences,and arts;it had already produced Gods. Was it not Aristotle who said:The races that live in cold regions and those of Europe are full of courage and passion but somewhat lacking in skill and brain power;they lack political cohesion and the ability to rule others. Professor Erman in his book,life in ancient Egypt states:Ethnologists assert that nothing exists in the physical structure of the Egyptian to distinguish him from the native African,and that from the Egyptian to the negro population of tropical Africa,a series of links exist which do not admit of a break. Egyptologist G.R.Gliddon lays out the conclusion we must come to if we accept the African origins of the ancient Egyptians:so far then,as the record,scriptural,historical and monumental,will afford us an insight into the early progress of the human race in Egypt[the most ancient of allcivilized countries]that civilization originated in Ethiopia,and consequently among an African people,and was by them brought down the nile…we,who trace back to Egypt the origins of every art and science known in antiquity,have to thank the sable Negro…for the first gleams of knowledge and invention. According to the scholar,Joseph McCabe:”…our ancestors remained…pure barbarians,during the two thousand years when the dark men…were constructing civilization…until about 700B.C. the philosophers of the world would have said that white men seemed incapable of civilization…quoteing from the book ,The new science and the story of evolution,p.292-98. Gaston Masoero[1846-1916]on the opinion of all the ancient writers on te Egyptian race states:By the almost unanimous testimony of ancient historians,they belonged to an African race. There is a lot more,but my time is limited,so I leave you with this by that eminent black scholar and historian,John Henrik Clarke,who once commented:some people…had come to your land taken you over,processed your mind into thinking he has always been civilized and you have always been waiting for him to bring the light.What happened when you found out that he had no light.

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By bmawute ( – 206.170.78.254) on Friday, January 5, 2001 – 04:35 pm:
God created himself out of triple darkness and then he made man in his image and after his own likeness. The original man was black. There is no question about that. Archeologists of all races have to acknowledge that fact. They have been digging all over the world for many many years and everything that they dig up looks like Black people. This certainly bears witness to who was here first. The european’s history can only be traced back 6,000 years, that is why he tries to make people believe that that is when the earth started. He wants to take credit for the pyramids, but he was not there. With all of his technology, he still cannot explain how the pyramids remain at 72 degrees at all times. It baffles him. The Black man goes back millions of years, this is why I can’t understand how we can allow the european to tell us about God and who he is. How arrogant of him, how gullible of us, when we survived for so many centuries before he was even created. Do we really believe that we knew nothing of God and spirituality before his late arrival. He is the last species of mankind to arrive on the planet and has raised more hell and caused more death and destruction than all of the other races combined. One only has to study, pray for understanding and use common sense to understand who we are and what our purpose is. When you look into the eyes of the Black Man and Black Woman, you are looking into the eyes of GOD! This is why the european feels so compelled to keep us deaf, dumb, blind and divided. He knows that if you study your origins and understand where and who you came from, you will no longer look at him with a kind of awe and worship. You will begin to see that he is not a giant after all. He is a master of illusion and trickery. You will no longer fear him and you will take your rightful place in the world, and that is on top. This is why he fears you and feels a need to keep the Black race divided. He doesn’t have a problem with Jewish, Asian, Korean, or Mexican unity, but every time we talk about unity, he tells us that we are just americans and calls us racists when we make an effort to heal our families and communities. If we are really “just americans”, why are we always at the bottom of everything that is good, and at the top of everything that is negative? Wake up Black Man and Black Woman. Stay focused, stay prayerful and obedient and continue to study and then we will awaken from this deep sleep that we have been put into. We are a beautiful, intelligent, creative and magnificent people when we are in our right minds.
Black Man Rising!

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By Madhuri Kayvalya ( – 63.44.251.208) on Saturday, February 24, 2001 – 02:44 am:
The Hitler Project
Bush Property Seized–Trading with the Enemy

In October 1942, ten months after entering World War II, America was preparing its first assault against Nazi military forces. Prescott Bush was managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman. His 18-year-old son George, the future U.S. President, had just begun training to become a naval pilot. On Oct. 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City which were being conducted by Prescott Bush.

President Bush’s family had already played a central role in financing and arming Adolf Hitler for his takeover of Germany; in financing and managing the buildup of Nazi war industries for the conquest of Europe and war against the U.S.A.; and in the development of Nazi genocide theories and racial propaganda, with their well-known results.

The facts presented here must be known, and their implications reflected upon, for a proper understanding of President George Herbert Walker Bush and of the danger to mankind that he represents. The President’s family fortune was largely a result of the Hitler project. The powerful Anglo-American family associations, which later boosted him into the Central Intelligence Agency and up to the White House, were his father’s partners in the Hitler project.

By deciding that Prescott Bush and the other directors of the Union Banking Corp. were legally front men for the Nazis, the government avoided the more important historical issue: In what way were Hitler’s Nazis themselves hired, armed and instructed by the New York and London clique of which Prescott Bush was an executive manager? Let us examine the Harriman-Bush Hitler project from the 1920s until it was partially broken up, to seek an answer for that question.

Origin and Extent of the Project
Fritz Thyssen and his business partners are universally recognized as the most important German financiers of Adolf Hitler’s takeover of Germany. At the time of the order seizing the Thyssen family’s Union Banking Corp., Mr. Fritz Thyssen had already published his famous book, I Paid Hitler, admitting that he had financed Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement since October 1923. Thyssen’s role as the leading early backer of Hitler’s grab for power in Germany had been noted by U.S. diplomats in Berlin in 1932

Prescott Bush became vice president of W.A. Harriman & Co. in 1926. That same year, a friend of Harriman and Bush set up a giant new organization for their client Fritz Thyssen, prime sponsor of politician Adolf Hitler. The new German Steel Trust, Germany’s largest industrial corporation, was organized in 1926 by Wall Street banker Clarence Dillon. Dillon was the old comrade of Prescott Bush’s father Sam Bush from the “ Merchants of Death ” bureau in World War I.

Brown Brothers had a racial tradition that fitted it well for the Hitler project! American patriots had cursed its name back in U.S. Civil War days. Brown Brothers, with offices in the U.S.A. and in England, had carried on their ships fully 75 percent of the slave cotton from the American South over to British mill owners. Now in 1931, the virtual dictator of world finance, Bank of England Governor Montagu Collet Norman, was a former Brown Brothers partner, whose grandfather had been boss of Brown Brothers during the U.S. Civil War.

In 1931, while Prescott Bush ran the New York office of Brown Brothers Harriman, Prescott’s partner was Montagu Norman’s intimate friend Thatcher Brown. The Bank of England chief always stayed at the home of Prescott’s partner on his hush-hush trips to New York. Prescott Bush concentrated on the firm’s German activities

Hitler’s Ladder to Power
Adolf Hitler became Chancellor of Germany January 30, 1933, and absolute dictator in March 1933, after two years of expensive and violent lobbying and electioneering. Two affiliates of the Bush-Harriman organization played great parts in this criminal undertaking: Thyssen’s German Steel Trust; and the Hamburg-Amerika Line and several of its executives

The Flick-Harriman partnership was directly supervised by Prescott Bush, President Bush’s father, and by George Walker, President Bush’s grandfather.

On March 19, 1934, Prescott Bush–then director of the German Steel Trust’s Union Banking Corporation–initiated an alert to the absent Averell Harriman about a problem which had developed in the Flick partnership. Bush sent Harriman a clipping from the New York Times of that day, which reported that the Polish government was fighting back against American and German stockholders who controlled “ Poland’s largest industrial unit, the Upper Silesian Coal and Steel Company…. ”

Warrants were issued in December for several directors accused of tax evasions. They were German citizens and they fled. They were replaced by Poles. Herr Flick, regarding this as an attempt to make the company’s board entirely Polish, retaliated by restricting credits until the new Polish directors were unable to pay the workmen regularly. ”

The Times noted that the company’s mines and mills “ employ 25,000 men and account for 45 percent of Poland’s total steel output and 12 percent of her coal production. Two-thirds of the company’s stock is owned by Friedrich Flick, a leading German steel industrialist, and the remainder is owned by interests in the United States. ”

In view of the fact that a great deal of Polish output was being exported to Hitler Germany under depression conditions, the Polish government thought that Prescott Bush, Harriman and their Nazi partners should at least pay full taxes on their Polish holdings. The U.S. and Nazi owners responded with a lockout.

Nazi tanks and bombs “ settled ” this dispute in September, 1939 with the invasion of Poland, beginning World War II. The Nazi army had been equipped by Flick, Harriman, Walker and Bush, with materials essentially stolen from Poland.

In many ways, Bush’s Hamburg-Amerika Line was the pivot for the entire Hitler project

The Schroeder family of bankers was a linchpin for the Nazi activities of Harriman and Prescott Bush, closely tied to their lawyers Allen and John Foster Dulles.

Baron Kurt von Schroeder was co-director of the massive Thyssen-Hu@autte foundry along with Johann Groeninger, Prescott Bush’s New York bank partner. Kurt von Schroeder was treasurer of the support organization for the Nazi Party’s private armies, to which Friedrich Flick contributed. Kurt von Schroeder and Hjalmar Schacht together made the final arrangements for Hitler to enter the government.

Baron Rudolph von Schroeder was vice president and director of the Hamburg-Amerika Line. Long an intimate contact of Averell Harriman’s in Germany, Baron Rudolph sent his grandson Baron Johann Rudolph for a tour of Prescott Bush’s Brown Brothers Harriman offices in New York City in December 1932–on the eve of their Hitler-triumph.

Certain actions taken directly by the Harriman-Bush shipping line in 1932 must be ranked among the gravest acts of treason in this century.

The U.S. embassy in Berlin reported back to Washington that the “ costly election campaigns ” and “ the cost of maintaining a private army of 300,000 to 400,000 men ” had raised questions as to the Nazis’ financial backers. The constitutional government of the German republic moved to defend national freedom by ordering the Nazi Party private armies disbanded. The U.S. embassy reported that the Hamburg-Amerika Line was purchasing and distributing propaganda attacks against the German government, for attempting this last-minute crackdown on Hitler’s forces.

For his part in the Hitler revolution, Prescott Bush was paid a fortune.

This is the legacy he left to his son, President George Bush.

George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography — by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin

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By Chugalug ( – 64.167.88.42) on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 – 07:42 pm:
Race is irrelevant. Race is only a veil. Life is an individual struggle. “The Races” should stop pointing fingers at each other; it is pointless and childish. We all need to take responsibility for our own souls. Despite what those who would control you would have you believe, the personal is NOT political. It’s time to stop jerking off.

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By Damani6 ( – 161.149.50.100) on Tuesday, May 8, 2001 – 07:47 pm:
Hey Whiteboy!

You have no claim to America since you cannot digest the fact that the cement that is the foundation of America is held together by the blood weat and tears of Africans stolen from their country by your forefather or sold into slavery by thier forefather. Your ignorance is full of wind. Let me share some wisdom with you that can change your backward life if you dare try. Since you feel that Africans and Blacks are worthless and have not contributed anything to the society of men, try not using inventions made by blackmen and women. For example:
(1) Try writing without paper. Africans invented and used paper in Timbuktu long before the first Eygptian dynasty. That means you cannot wipe you behind, if you get my point, but that okay, before you kind was introduced to the wonders of the black world, they used leaves or their hands. Nasty!
(2)If you have a car, pray it does not break down. If it does, tell your mechanic not to use a wrench because it was created by a worthless, count-for-nothing blackman (John A. Johnson).
(3) I hope you do not use a clothes dress to store your neatly folded laundry. If you do, throw it way because it was invented by a blackman (John J. Jordan.)
(4) I hope you do not live where it gets cold. If you do you can go back to the backward ways of your people before Musa (a blackman) taugth to make fire, because a blackwoman invented the heating furnace (Alice H. Parker)
(5) Remeber Henry Ford Whiteboy. Well you would not if it were not for J. Gregory. He was the balckman who invented the internal conbustion engine.

I could go on for hours with the inventions of black Americans that would leave your lifestyle in form it was in before the first white person ever laid eyes on a blackman if you dare do without them. As a matter of fact, the first blackman white people every saw was Hannibal who was conquering the whitea–s. Now, this is a rhetorical question so save your ignorant ramblings. If Africans were so backward as you claim, who other than God can claim the providence from which the ideas, concepts and insights to create the wonderful things that you take for granted have come from. Yes, crawl back in your hole and take a stick of dynamite with you when you go. BOOM!

Just because you live in a system that provides previlages to white boys, do not think for a moment that ignorance will get you anywhere. Did you know that there are more white people on welfare than black, receiving greater benefits due to Affirmation Action than blacks. What vaccum did you step out of.

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By kinks_83 ( – 216.196.24.170) on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 – 02:52 am:
I am currently reading the book which sparked this debate, The Destruction of Black Civilization by Chancellor Williams. I personally give the book a lot of praise because it not only answered previous existing questions of our history, but exposed facts which created new ones. For instance, one comment I read claimed there was no real proof of African Civilization and Achievements, however this work chronologically exposes the great and obviously intentional “black out” in European history. Williams catalogues numerous events throughout history of African interactions with Europeans and Asians, and simply the proof is in the pudding. For any White, Black, Arab , Latinos ect. who questions the origin of civilization, the blackness of egypt, the development of the arts and sciences, the beginnings of communication, and the specific events which led to the downfall of our greatness this is definately a must read . So white Boy if you’re looking for proof open the book, and if you want to know why you should teach your kids about kwanzaa open the book, and if you want to kwow why africans in america can’t advance open the book and then read the miseducation of the Negro by Carter G Woodson. Because frankly for us to have been fighting off global attack from all of Asia, Europe, and other prdominantly white civilization for five thousand years(pg.58) we’re doing quite well for ourselves. So open the Book all my brothers and sisters and open your eyes. Because true equality can only be layed on a foundation of truth, and therefore an admission of guilt and reparation must occur before we can begin to mend this two sided world which exist today. For your days are numbered and if we continue to be pushed to civil disobedience to be heard, then the repercussion that will tossed upon the white race will be tradgic, but executed by all means necessary. You all only make up 2% of the population, so how long do you really believe our naivete and righteousness will allow you to keep this up? GLOBAL ASSASSANATIONS. Somebodies gonna pay for all these years of poverty and the rape of our nation.So keep up you white bastards we’ll see who gets the last laugh. If you were smart you call the truce now while some of us still ike you, cause this could get ugly.

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By PABCD ( – 158.252.92.40) on Thursday, September 6, 2001 – 02:57 pm:
As a military brat I have lived all over the world and the one thing that is noticable is that the variations in races blend as the borders have changed over the centuries. With the conquest of one country over the other, back and forth with one inslaving the other , is there really any race that can say that they are pure. I don’t think so. There is no one race better than another, and there is no culture or religion that is better than any other. Just men trying to make themselves feel that they are something more than they are (JUST MEN). The only ones who do have the right to complain is WOMEN. We have been and still are inslaved and tortured just for being born a woman. There is no civilization on this planet who can say that their women have been treated equally to their men.

“THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION” BY BROTHER CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS: A REVIEW BY SAADIQ MANCE FROM EMERGINGMINDS.ORG

October 1, 2007

from emergingminds.org

Book Review: The Destruction of Black Civilization

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Book written by Chancellor Williams
Reviewed by Saadiq Mance

In the past, I have heard several people refer to The Destruction of Black Civilization, by Chancellor Williams as the “Black Bible.” With such a lofty analogy attached to this book, I wonder to this day why it took me so long to read this amazing story of Black history. Well, Black History Month 2007 would be the year my eyes would be open…and all I can say at this point is thank you Chancellor Williams!

All of my life I have questioned why Black people throughout the world have experienced such a plight and why it has been so difficult for us to overcome it. Well The Destruction of Black Civilization is a book of answers, as it answers most of the major questions that people have about the African race. Such as:

“How did such a highly advanced Black Civilization get so completely destroyed that its people have found themselves not only behind other people of the world, but as well, the color of their skin a sign of inferiority, bad luck, and the badge of the slave whether bond or fee?”

“How did all Black Egypt become all white Egypt?”

“What were some of the specific details in the process that so completely blotted out the achievements of the African race from the annals of history?”

“How and under what circumstances did Africans, among the very first people to invent writing, lose this art almost completely?”

“Is there a single African race, one African people?”

“If we are one race or one people, how do you explain the numerous languages, cultural varieties and tribal groupings?”

“Since, as it seems, that there is far more disunity, self-hatred and mutual antagonism among Blacks than any other people, is there a historical explanation for this?”

“How is the undying love of Blacks for their Europeans and Asian conquerors and enslavers explained?”

Chancellor Williams does not just answers these questions as an arm charm scholar either, no not at all. Williams created this book after 16 years of research which included a precise investigation of Africa’s own independently developed civilization by doing a continent-wide field study from the Mediterranean extending southward down the Nile into the “bush” far way from the westernized urban centers, through the tip of the country in South Africa.

That data he uncovered is startling! If you haven’t read this magnificent work yet then I would suggest you stop reading this right now and go pick up the book and start reading it now

A PRELIMINARY GLOBAL AFRICAN PRESENCEBOOK LIST*,COMPILED AND POSTED BY RUNOKO RASHIDI,SUBMITTED BY BROTHER DARRELL DAVIS TO ” BLACK IS BEAUTIFUL”

September 29, 2007

from Brother Darrell Davis

A PRELIMINARY GLOBAL AFRICAN PRESENCE BOOK LIST*

Compiled and posted by RUNOKO RASHIDI

DEDICATED TO DR. JOHN HENRIK CLARKE (1915-1998)

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Akbar, Na’im. Visions for Black Men. Nashville: Winston-Derek, 1991.

Ani, Marimba. Yurugu: An African-Centered Critique of European Cultural Thought and Behavior. Trenton: Africa World Press, 1994.

Armah, Ayi Kwei. Two Thousand Seasons. Poppenguine, Senegal: Per Ankh, 2000.

Begg, Ean. The Cult of the Black Virgin. London: Arkana, 1986.

Ben-Jochannan, Yosef A.A. Black Man of the Nile and His Family. Baltimore: Black Classic Press, 1989.

Ben-Jochannan, Yosef A.A. African Origins of the Major Western Religions. Baltimore: Black Classic Press, 1991.

Bennett, Lerone. Before the Mayflower: A History of Black America. Harmondsworth: 1962.

Browder, Anthony Y. Nile Valley Contributions to Civilizations: Exploding the Myths, Volume 1. Introduction by John Henrik Clarke: Washington, DC: Institute of Karmic Guidance, 1992.

Butweiku I, Nana Ekow. Afrikan Theology, Cosmogony & Philosophy: An Insight on Traditional Afrikan Religion. Introduction by Runoko Rashidi. Hampton: UB & US Communications Systems, 1999.

Bynum, Edward Bruce. The African Unconscious: Roots Ancient Mysticism and Modern Psychology. Foreword by Linda James Myers. New York: Teachers College,

Carruthers, Jacob H. The Irritated Genie: An Essay on the Haitian Revolution. Chicago: The Kemetic Institute, 1985.

Carruthers, Jacob H. Intellectual Warfare. Chicago: Third World Press, 1999.

Carruthers, Jacob H., and Leon Harris, eds. African World History Project: The Preliminary Project. Chicago: Kemetic Institute, 1996.

Chandler, Wayne B. Ancient Future: The Teachings and Prophetic Wisdom of the Seven Hermetic Laws of Ancient Egypt. Introduction by Ivan Van Sertima. Baltimore: Black Classic Press, 1999.

Chinweizu. The West and the Rest of Us. Lagos: Nok Publishers, 1978.

Clarke, John Henrik. Notes for an African World Revolution: Africans at the Crossroads. Trenton: Africa World Press, 1991.

DeGraft-Johnson, J.C. African Glory: The Story of Vanished Negro Civilizations. 1954; reprinted. Baltimore: Black Classic Press, 1985.

Diop, Cheikh Anta. African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality. Translated from the French by Mercer Cook. New York: Lawrence Hill, 1974,

Diop, Cheikh Anta. The Cultural Unity of Black Africa.: The Domains of Patriarchy and Matriarchy in Classical Antiquity. Introduction by John Henrik Clarke. Afterword by James G. Spady. Chicago: Third World Press, 1978.

Diop, Cheikh Anta. Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. Translated from the French by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi. Edited by Harold J. Salemson and Marjolijn de Jager. New York: Lawrence Hill, 1991.

Drake, St. Clair. Black Folk Here and There: An Essay in History and Anthropology, Volume 1. Los Angeles: Center for Afro-American Studies, UCLA, 1987,

Elder, Bruce. Blood on the Wattle: Massacres and Maltreatment of Aboriginal Australians Since 1988. Sydney: New Holland Publishers, 1998.

Fanon, Frantz. The Wretched of the Earth. New York: Grove Press, 1963.

Finch III, Charles S. Echoes of the Old Darkland: Themes from the African Eden. Decatur: Khenti, 1991.

Finch III, Charles S. The Star of Deep of Beginnings: The Genesis of African Science of Technology. Decatur: Khenti, 1998.

Fraser, Rosalie. Shadow Child: A Memoir of the Stolen Generation. Alexandria: Hale & Iremonger, 1998.

Gnammankou, Dieudonne. Pouchkine et le Monde Noir. Paris: Presence Africaine, 1999.

Guillon, Emmanuel. Cham Art: Treasures from the Da Nang Museum, Vietnam. Bangkok: River Books, 2001.

Harris, Joseph E.,ed. Africa and Africans as Seen by Classical Writers: The William Leo Hansberry Notebook, Volume 2. Washington, DC: Howard University Press, 1977.

Hilliard III, Asa G. The Maroon Within Us. Baltimore: Black Classic Press, 1994.

Hilliard III, Asa G. SBA: The Reawakening of the African Mind. Foreword by Wade W. Nobles. Gainesville: Makare, 1997

Houston, Drusilla Dunjee. Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire. 1926; rpt. Introduction by W. Paul Coates. Afterword by Asa G. Hilliard III. Commentary by James G. Spady. Baltimore: Black Classic Press, 1985.

Jackson, John G. Introduction to African Civilizations. Foreword by Runoko Rashidi. Introduction by John Henrik Clarke. New York: Citadel, 2001.

James, George G.M. Stolen Legacy: The Greeks Were not the Authors of Greek Philosophy, but the People of North Africa Commonly Called the Egyptians. 1954; rpt. Introduction by Asa G. Hilliard III. San Francisco: Julian Richardson, 1988.

Katz, William Loren. Black Indians: A Hidden Heritage. New York: Atheneum, 1986.

Killens, John Oliver. Great Black Russian: A Novel on the Life and Times of Alexander Pushkin. Introduction by Addison Gayle. Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1989.

Martin, Tony. Race First: The Ideological and Organizational Struggles of Marcus Garvey and the Universal Negro Improvement Association. Dover: The Majority Press, 1976.

McCray, Walter Arthur. The Black Presence in the Bible: Discovering the Black and African Identity of Biblical Persons and Nations. Chicago: Black Light Fellowship, 1990.

Moore, Carlos, ed. African Presence in the Americas. Trenton: Africa World Press, 1995.

Obenga, Theophile. Ancient Egypt and Black Africa: A Student’s Handbook for the Study of Ancient Egypt in Philosophy, Linguistics and Gender Relations. London: Karnak House, 1992.

Rajshekar, V.T. Dalit: The Black Untouchables of India. Foreword by Y.N. Kly. Afterword by Runoko Rashidi. Atlanta: Clarity Press, 1995.

Rashidi, Runoko, and Ivan Van Sertima, eds. African Presence in Early Asia. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1995.

Raven, Susan. Rome in Africa. London: Routledge, 1993.

Rodney, Walter. How Europe Underdeveloped Africa. Introduction by Vincent Harding. Postscript by A.M. Babu. Washington, DC: Howard University Press, 1982.

Rogers, Joel Augustus. Sex and Race. Rogers: New York 1942.

Rogers, Joel Augustus. World’s Great Men of Color, two volumes. New York: Macmillan, 1972.

Sabbioni, Jennifer, Kay Schaffer and Sidonie Smith, eds. Indigenous Australian Voices: A Reader. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 1998.

Scobie, Edward. Global African Presence. Introduction by Ivan Van Sertima. Brooklyn: A & B Books, 1994.

Sharp, Saundra. Black Women for Beginners. New York: Writers and Readers, 1993.

Van Sertima, Ivan. They Came Before Columbus: The African Presence in Ancient America. New York: Random House, 1976.

Van Sertima, Ivan, ed. African Presence in Early Europe. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1985.

Van Sertima, Ivan, ed. Egypt Revisited. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1989.

Van Sertima, Ivan, ed. Golden Age of the Moor. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1992.

Van Sertima, Ivan, ed. Egypt: Child of Africa. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1994.

Van Sertima, Ivan, ed. Early America Revisited. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1998.

Van Sertima, Ivan, and Larry Obadele Williams, eds. Great African Thinkers, Volume 1: Cheikh Anta Diop. New Brunswick: Transaction Press, 1986.

Welsing, Frances Cress. The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors. Chicago: Third World Press, 1991.

Williams, Chancellor. The Destruction of Black Civilization: Great Issues of a Race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D. Chicago: Third World Press, 1987.

Wilson, Amos N. Afrikan-Centered Consciousness Versus the New World Order: Garveyism in the Age of Globalism. New York: Afrikan World Infosystems, 1999.

Woodson, Carter G. The Mis-Education of the Negro. Washington, DC: Associated Publishers, 1933.

X, Malcolm. Malcolm X on Afro-American History. New York: Pathfinder, 1970.

“THE ORIGINAL BLACK AFRICAN ARABS OF ARABIA (PART 2) BY OGU IJI-OFO ANNU AT RASTA LIVEWIRE

August 19, 2007

from africaresource.com/rasta

Rasta Livewire
Rastafarian Views on Life, Politics and Social Issues

The Original Black African Arabs of Arabia (Part 2) — Ogu Eji-Ofo Annu
Posted in Articles, Prophet, Rastas by Don Jaide on December 9, 2006.
The Original Black Arabs of Arabia – Part 2
By
Ogu Eji-Ofo Annu

Arabia the Daughter of Kush
The classical Greek and Roman writers commonly accepted the division of Arabia into Deserta (desert), Felix (happy), and Petraea (stony). Not much is known today about the exact configuration of those divisions. Later day Islamic Arabic geographers know nothing of this division, and this is not surprising since many of those later day Arabs are actually immigrants that later acculturated and assimilated into the culture of the original Black Arabs.

Arab geographers of the Islamic period divided Arabia generally into five provinces: The first is Yemen, embracing the whole south of the peninsula and including Hadramaut, Mahra, Oman, Shehr, and Nejran. The second is Hijaz, on the west coast and including Mecca and Medina, the two famous centres of Islam. The third is Tehama, along the same coast between Yemen and Hijaz. The fourth is Nejd, which includes most of the central table-land, and the fifth is Yamama, extending all the wide way between Yemen and Nejd. This division is also inadequate, for it omits the greater part of North and East Arabia.

A more recent division of Arabia, according to politico-geographical principles, is into seven provinces: Hijaz, Yemen, Hadramaut, Oman, Hasa, Irak, and Nejd. It has always been the assertion of experts that certain tribes that lived on the coast of Yemen and on the coast of Ethiopia and Eriteria were almost identical. The linkages between Ethiopia Kush and Arabia must be considered in the context of any discourse on Arab people, or more precisely stated the Black Africans of Arabia.

Ethiopia-Kush

As stated in the preceding paragraph, the key to understanding the origin and culture of the Arabs is through African Kushitic Ethiopia.
Contacts between eastern Africa and Arabia have existed since the time immemorial. Archeological evidence has demonstrated that Africans of the Caspian culture probably moved across the Strait of Bab El Mandel and implanted the same Caspian culture in Arabia on the other side of the strait. See Leaky, L.S.B., Stone Age Africa pp 38-78.
The Strait of Bab-El-Mandel, which separates Africa from Arabia, is quite narrow at some points averaging a couple of days journey on a sea raft or small canoe. Communication and travel have consequently been possible since pre-historic times.
It will thus not be a surprising claim to the well informed that East African people (being the first aboriginals of the earth) have long settled in Arabia as the original inhabitants. For instance, besides the Caspian culture, African people also founded the so-called Afro-Arabian Tihama cultural complex in the mid-2nd millennium.
In addition to the coastal site of Adulis in Eritrea and sites farther inland in Eritrea, Ethiopia, and Sudan, vestiges of the Tihama cultural complex are represented on the Saudi coastal plains and the western and southern coasts of Yemen. (Fattovich 1997).
Moreover, African settlements were further stimulated by the growth of the Egyptian state from the 4th millennium onward, with more extensive migration of African population in Arabia around the 3rd and 2nd millennia B.C. Semitic speaking settlers from Ethiopia-Kush settled in Arabia built complex cultures and civilizations of which the later Assyrians, Greeks, Romans and Jews would document for coming generations. See Josephus Book 1.
Long before Yemen had become a politically articulated entity, the Ethiopian-Axumites had built many powerful states along the coast of Red Sea and the hilly countries of Ethiopia such as ancient Adulis, Coloe, Yeha Tokanda, and the so called Ethio-Sabean state of Daamat (circa 800-600 B.C.) etc. Ethiopia-Axum, the ancient dominant power in the region, gradually incorporated the African-Yemenites into its political sway. By 12th century B.C. Southern Arabia fell under the complete control of the Ethiopian-Axumites through their long domination of the Red Sea trade routes. The first kingdom built by the Ethiopian-Axumites in Arabia was Saba just across the straits in Yemen in 800 B.C. See Ephraim Isaac and Cain Felder, “Reflections on the Origins of the Ethiopian Civilization”, Eight International Conference of Ethiopian Studies, November 1984. Successive civilisations of Mineans, Sabaeans and Himyarites interacted closely with their counterparts in Ethiopia.
For a while the Ethiopian-Kushitic Arabs focussed their energies on the Yemeni side of the coast in states like Saba and Daamat. Products were shipped into Yemen from Ethiopia and exported all over the world through the Red Sea.
Following the decline of Saba and Daamat, the international trade hub moved to the kingdom of Axum on the opposite side of the Red Sea coast. From its seaports such as Adulis, Ethiopian-Kushites, Axum’s trade network extended from Egypt as far as India.
Axum survived for more than 2500 years as a great state dominating the Red Sea regions although western historians would grudgingly concede 800 years. It occupied and ruled southern Arabia for part of this period. Utilitarian Aksumite pottery has been found in large quantities in deposits from the 5th and 6th centuries in the Yemen Hadramawt, suggesting that there may have been substantial immigration during that period. Axumites descended groups such as the Habashahs, still live in southern Yemen today fully cognizant of their African origins and connections.

Indeed, interaction between Yemen and Ethiopia in ancient times is sometimes compared with the historical relationship between Europe and America, with the Red Sea as substitute for the Atlantic Ocean.

THE BEJA PEOPLE: HABITAT AND HISTORY

Another important group of Black African groups who contributed genetically, and culturally to the formation of the Arabs are the Bejas otherwise called the Blemmyes. It appears that the Blemmyes as encountered in classical literature provided the foundation for the ethnic group known today as Bedouins.
The indigenous Beja people are nomads who have inhabited the semi-desert area in the Red Sea coast of Sudan and the hilly country behind it for thousands of years. The ancient Egyptians referred to them as the people of Buka or Medju (Medjay), the Romans dubbed them Blemmyes and in the Odessa they were described as Erembes. They are a Kushitic-Khemitic people who spoke a mixed dialect of semitic and Cushitic language. They identify themselves today as the most original and ancient of the Arab tribes.
Kemitic Pharaohs called them Absha, meaning ‘the desert dwellers’ – that is, the Bedouins in Arabic language – and Ramses II called them Beja, purporting fighters’. Thus one can reasonably see the Bejas as fulfilling the Arab Bedouin archetype of the fearsome, nomadic owners of the Sahara, highly temperamental but compassionate. Throughout history, they have been regarded as very efficient fighting machines. It is important to note that besides the Nubians, it is well documented that the Beja were employed in the Egyptian army and were credited for their courage and fortitude during the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt.
The Roman Historian Ammianus Marcellinus inspite of his odious ethno-centrism provides us more clues on the racial and ethnic identity of the earliest Arabs. In his book The Roman History, Book XIV.iv.1-7. (380 A.D.)) the Saracens a named that was used to describe the Arabs in both ancient and modern times (stems most likely from the Arabic Sarqiyyun, meaning ‘easterners’) were described as the Blemmys tribes who lived along the banks of the Nile beyond the cataracts. According to Ammianus Marcellinus:
“Book XIV.4:
At this time also the Saracens, a race whom it is never desirable to have either for friends or enemies, ranging up and down the country, if ever they found anything, plundered it in a moment, like rapacious hawks who, if from on high they behold any prey, carry it off with a rapid swoop, or, if they fail in their attempt, do not tarry. And although, in recounting the career of the Prince Marcus, and once or twice subsequently, I remember having discussed the manners of this people, nevertheless I will now briefly enumerate a few more particulars concerning them.
Among these tribes, whose primary origin is derived from the cataracts of the Nile and the borders of the Blemmyae, all the men are warriors of equal rank; half naked, clad in colored cloaks down to the waist, overrunning different countries, with the aid of swift and active horses and speedy camels, alike in times of peace and war. Nor does any member of their tribe ever take plow in hand or cultivate a tree, or seek food by the tillage of the land; but they are perpetually wandering over various and extensive districts, having no home, no fixed abode or laws; nor can they endure to remain long in the same climate, no one district or country pleasing them for a continuance.
Their life is one continued wandering; their wives are hired, on special covenant, for a fixed time; and that there may be some appearance of marriage in the business, the intended wife, under the name of a dowry, offers a spear and a tent to her husband, with a right to quit him after a fixed day, if she should choose to do so. And it is inconceivable with what eagerness the individuals of both sexes give themselves up to matrimonial pleasures.
But as long as they live they wander about with such extensive and perpetual migrations, that the woman is married in one place, brings forth her children in another, and rears them at a distance from either place, no opportunity of remaining quiet being ever granted to her. They all live on venison, and are further supported on a great abundance of milk, and on many kinds of herbs, and on whatever birds they can catch by fowling. And we have seen a great many of them wholly ignorant of the use of either corn or wine.”
The Black African Bejas/Saracens also called the Blemmys gave to the Arabs of today (blacks and pales) the knowledge to live in the Sahara as well as the most basic cultural elements that define the Bedouin culture including nomadic identity, marital culture and martial arts. For instance, the war-like Blemmyes (Beja) had normally fought with curiously shaped bows, and it was from them that the tribes of Hijaz and Yemen (in Arabia) – and the other Arab tribes – adopted the use of the bow. Historically, the Beja ruled the vast territory of theirs (laying between Northern Nigeria and Sudan) in five kingdoms – namely, the Naqis, Baqlin (Taflin), Bazin, Jarin and Qat’a (Qit’a, also perhaps Qas’a).
Arabia Petra
Arabia Petra spread between African Kushitic Egypt and Mesopotamia (another African kushitic area in the ancient times) (Josephus). It was originally settled by an early branch of the Cushitic Ethiopian people who spoke a proto-type semitic dialect.
The Beja’s known as the ancient Blemmyes one of the earliest known nomadic tribes to dwell in the deserts of Africa and Arabia probably provided the founding population of Arabia Petra.
Other sections of the African population from the early Caspian culture and other culture complex centered on Ethiopia Axum and Ethiopia Kush may have equally contributed to the early settlement of Arabia Petra.
Some of these early African Black Arabs crossed the Red Sea whilst others migrated overland through the Nile valley into Arabia. Arabia Petrea thus became an early blending pot of African cultures. Due to this cultural ferment many nomads soon abandoned their wandering lives to establish sophisticated towns and cities together with the more sedentary population. These melange later became known as the Nabateans and their capital was Petra. (Drussilla Houstons) See also http://nabataea.net/arabia.html.
During the Roman period, the word Arab was a synonymy for Nabatean and vice versa. When the Romans incorporated Nabatea into their Empire, it was officially designated as the Province of Arabia. Numerous sculptures found in Arabia Petra clearly depict its population as African through their physical features. One classical example is that of Emperor Philip of Arabia one of the later Emperors of Rome, who was indigenous to Arabia Petra. His sculptures demonstrate that physically speaking, Emperor Philip of Arabia was a Black man of African descent.

Arabia Felix
Arabia Felix laid further south of Petra. Arabia Felix was bounded by the Shiraz region of the Persian Gulf, the Eritrean or Red sea (Africa) as well as the Indian Ocean. This country was rich in spices and in it was situated the famous cities of Mecca and Medina.
Here was the country of the Yemenis, the Habashas, the Sabas, the Hadramautians and the Mineans. All these were sections of the Ethiopian-Axumite tribes similar to the Amharas, the Oromos and the Tigriyeans, who had expanded the ancient lucrative spice trade to Arabia.
It should be noted that in addition to coffee, Ethiopia is the original homeland of incenses such as frankincense, myrrh, and spices like cinnamon. The traditional African planters of these cash crops and the African maritime operators of this most lucrative of ancient trades extended their operations from Ethiopia across the straits of Bab-el-Mandel to take advantage of the fertile land and the natural habours of Arabia Felix, which subsequently became export hubs of the ancient trade. (See Strabo,geography Book XVI.iv.19). Produce was shipped routinely from the highlands of Ethiopia into Ethiopian owned- Arabia Felix for exports to the rest of the world.
Given the historical, genetic, physical and geographical proximity between Ethiopia and Arabia Felix and the similarity of the cultural expression of both land, it is not a wonder why the ancient Greek writers swore that the Ethiopians ruled the whole of Arabia. It was clear to the sophisticated Greeks and the worldly Romans that Black Africans settled and developed this portion of Arabia!

Arabia Deserta
Arabia Deserta was originally people by the Bejas and kindred groups from Africa. These are the original owners of the Sahara and its extension known as the Arabia Desert. The Bejas as we have seen from preceeding paragraphs were the first to be called Bedouins due to their nomadic culture and their preference for Desert habitats.

In the beginning of Holocene period, a group of landless, barbarian, starving, pale-skinned Central Asian refugees now known as the pale-skin Arabs (i.e. the so-called Semites) began living side by side with the nomadic African Cushitic Bejas who owned the entire Sahara desert between the Nile and the Arabian peninsula. Over the course of time these two peoples have intermingled culturally and genetically that there is barely any pale skin (Arabized) Arabs alive today that does not carry extensive Africa genes in his blood. The descendants of this intermingling are the so-called modern Semitic Arabs (more precisely known as the Arabized Arabs) who trace their roots through Abraham.
The Central Asian barbarians did not develop any states, high culture or language in Arabia. They were destitues, mostly ignorant, unread and illiterate. The Koran takes great pain to dissociate this group from the high cultural attainment of ancient Arabia. It is clearly stated that until the advent of the Islamic Prophet Muhammed, these so-called Semites lived in a state of perpetual brutality, savagery, warfare and robbery. The Koran also takes pain to identify the original Black Arabs who had lived in Ad, Thamud, Imru etc, as the originators and builders of Arab civilization and culture.
These Arabized Arabs have sublimated stories of their origin in the legend of Abraham, which narrates of his journey from somewhere proximate to central Asia into the Black African territory of Arabia. He was said to have married a Black Egyptian-born wife, Hagar/Hajir, and their son was named, Ishmael/Isma’il. In this legend one immediately becomes aware of the central Asian origin of its heros and the resultant miscegenation which gave rise to the Arabised Arabs.
These so-called descendants of Abraham (actually mix breed from Black African Bejas and pale central Asian-stanis like the Turkmenistanis) settled in Mecca which was then under the overlordship of the Kushitic-Ethiopic owners of Arabia-Felix. This category of Arabs normally called themselves ‘Adnaniyun – that is, after one of their great tribal ancestors Adnan.
Despite the mythical origin of this peculiar historical source, it is clear that conscious effort has been made by Arabized Arabs to associate their tribes to African Royal pedigree. Since it is generally known that Kushitic citizenship was matrilineal, and only children born by Kemitic Kushite mothers could aspire to be Kings in Egypt and Ethiopia, it does not take a lot of imagination to understand the role of the black Egyptian (Kemitic Kushite) Hagar in the Abraham story. The Arabized Arabs actually claim a Black African historical and archetypal mother! No wonder “Aswad” (Black) is such an attractive concept in Arabic language.
December 9,2006
To be continued

5 Responses “The Original Black African Arabs of Arabia (Part 2) — Ogu Eji-Ofo Annu”
Dana Marniche replied:

The Blemmyes were thought to have been just one of the Bedja tribes. Bedja or Medjayu was a more general name for the Afro-Semitic Cushitic people living on the African side of the Eritraean Sea. There were also the Adiabari, Megabari and other Barbari. The Anag’il of the Bedja are now called Danakil. Abraham’s people were very likely similar to the modern dark-skinned Mash’ai of Oman known to Josephus as Mash son of Aram. The Aramaeans of ancient times were the Amorites or Ammuru. Thus, according to the Biblical book Ezekiel – Israel’s mother was a Hittite and father was an Amorite. Both were early Canaanite peoples. Ham Shem and Japhet were all the same people 3500 years ago. The Syro-Aramaeans in the tomb of king Tut and Phoenicians in the temple art of the Egyptians show that they had the same pigment as the people of the ancient Egyptians, Puntites and some of the peoples of Nubia – A dark brown color with a copper or brick red caste.
January 26th, 2007 at 5:07 pm. Permalink.
Ali Sharif Mandela replied:

If Prophet Abraham(sas)was a pale skinned Central Asian Semite
and his wife Haga/Hajir was a Black kemitic Kushite Eyptian African woman,then was Prophet Muhammad’s(sas)skin color pale or
a dark brown color with a copper or brick red caste? It appears that most Arabs was of dark hue before the advent of european invaders,conquers,colonizers,
rapist or intermarriage added to the skin color. Prophet Muhammad(sas)is described as having pale skin or white. Looking at his lineage,would it be proper to say he is white,black or of mixed heritage? Also,if there was no invasion,conquest or
colonization of Arabia,and no intermarriage or rape by Europeans(Turks or Persians),
then how could the Prophet or anyone else be born of white skin color at that period of time in Arabia? Please explain!
February 16th, 2007 at 7:31 am. Permalink.
Muhayyuddiyn ‘Ali Dhuw-Al-Fiqaar replied:

Thank you for this observation.Haajar(Hagar) was Egyptian Matron and Ibraahim(Abraham) was a Kushite Patron from Khaldaiyy Uwr of Ancient Babylon a Kushite Colony.They begat Ishmaa-El.Ishmaa-El married another Egyptian Matron woman named Fatima Ar-Ri’lah,they begat Twelve Princes the second whose name was Qeydaar(Kedar) this Arabic /Hebrew name means Powerfuly Dark Skinned man.Qeydaar(Kedar) married Fakhira a Matron Woman from The Qahtaanites(Joktan son of Kush)another African person.So in Fact Muhammad(saws) was Fully African in the North East Arabian Quarter of Afriqa.He was not white.The Arabic Term Sayyid which is the title of all of Abraaham’s and Muhammad’s Children;It means Noble.It comes from the Arabic Root word Sawwad(Black).If we were to say
“Huwa Ya-suwd min-hu”. Translated as;
“He is Blacker than him”. Literaly means;
“He is more Majestic than him”.
So here we can see that the Arabian term for “black” is a Noble Term.Today at the Kaaba, There you can see the Kiwa(cover)is Black. Hajr-I-Aswaad The Black Stone.Hadith al-Kisa the Cloak of Muhammad over his Family,Ali ,Fatima,Hasan,and Hussaiyn was Black and today a Sheiykh or a Ayaatullah Shi’ite from the descendants(sayyid=Sawwad) of Muhammad wear Black Turbans.Then we have the Term Sudan=Land of Two Blacks(East bank of the Red Sea and West Bank of The Red Sea)Africa and Arabia is one Land two different sides of the Red Sea.I know because I’am a Sayyid(Noble) who is Ya-Suwd(Majestic)who is Sawwad(Black)from the Sudan(lands of the Two Blacks=Abraham and Hagar).
Salawat
March 19th, 2007 at 11:57 am. Permalink.
TEE replied:

Why isn’t this taught??
May 5th, 2007 at 3:30 pm. Permalink.
mahmoud onursemra replied:

i want yous to talk about bedja alot the information i see is not good enough to get intersted at the moment its ok but not to good
June 12th, 2007 at 8:46 pm. Permalink.
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